Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

F1natic said:

flemke said:

Fuel tank - I spent a couple of years working on securing a replacement bag tank. There are two main sources of bag tanks for cars, both UK-based. I shan't mention names, but suffice to say that, in very different ways, both companies were utterly incompetent and I concluded that I would be crazy to trust such people who couldn't find their asses with both hands to supply me with a fuel tank on which my life might depend. I then went with MSO's aluminium version, which is the only one that MSO now offer.

I really enjoy watching Ian Tyrrells' videos, his recent F40 Part 5 restoration video covered bag tanks vs aluminium tanks and the issues they cause with insurance in different jurisdiction due to the impact behaviours, although the F1's is centralised and kept away from direct side impacts unlike the F40. For those who are not interested in F40's here is a link to the 8:15 time stamp

https://youtu.be/1yWAwPvKQRo?si=gm_4dWpxWrXCJuGa&a...

I was told by my certifier that aluminium tanks are durable if they are of a flanged construction, which prevents the tank walls from "oil canning" and focusing fatigue cracks onto the welds in the corners due to the fact that the bent flange edge creates a stiffener that prevents the flex from working the weld. Is this the style that MSO puts in?

I could not tell you the construction method, although I know that McLaren spent a considerable amount of time designing and testing the piece to get it right. It was not just an aluminium box that someone knocked together!

[flemke]

732NM said:

F1natic said:

I really enjoy watching Ian Tyrrells' videos, his recent F40 Part 5 restoration video covered bag tanks vs aluminium tanks and the issues they cause with insurance in different jurisdiction due to the impact behaviours, although the F1's is centralised and kept away from direct side impacts unlike the F40. For those who are not interested in F40's here is a link to the 8:15 time stamp

https://youtu.be/1yWAwPvKQRo?si=gm_4dWpxWrXCJuGa&a...

I was told by my certifier that aluminium tanks are durable if they are of a flanged construction, which prevents the tank walls from "oil canning" and focusing fatigue cracks onto the welds in the corners due to the fact that the bent flange edge creates a stiffener that prevents the flex from working the weld. Is this the style that MSO puts in?

You should remove the internals and covers from bag tanks before manipulating them into/out of the holders, it's often helpful to use talcum powder to reduce friction when installing.

They are certified for 5 years, they can then be removed, tested by the manufacturer and recertified for a further 2 years before they should be replaced by new, if you need certification. Tanks will physically last much longer. I've restored F1 cars from the 70's which still had their original bag tanks not leaking. They obviously get replaced during restoration.

I suspect most bag tank issues are caused by poor fitment, I've had a couple with manufacting faults but those have always been rectified FOC.

With modern laser scanners you can get a near perfect fit, they are all hand made so nothing is absolutely perfect, but as they flex and you line the housings most of the time they don't need to be. The most important areas for accuracy are the external hard points, which are all made perfectly with CNC machined nutrings and covers.

It's a job I've done hundreds of times in all types of car, some are very easy, some are a complete nightmare. It really helps to have a good technical knowledge and deal direct with the manufacturer talking their language, it's expensive to make mistakes or have a breakdown in communication.

UK have some excellent companies making these fuel cells, motorsport is a big market but it's aviation where the highest demand is likely to be.

If I was in a big crash, the last thing I would want in the car is aluminium tanks. I've been around long enough to see some enormous crashes that bag tanks have survived and been deformed to an incredible degree and not leaked a drop. Had that been aluminium the driver would be severely burned or worse.

The top technician at MSO has installed countless bags tanks into the cars; he knows what he is doing.
One of the two big British companies that supply bag tanks to the racing industry was supplying F1 tanks that, not always but often, would leak. MSO had many conversations with them about the issue. but the manufacturing problem was never fixed. Thus their product was a non-starter.
For the other company, I was in dialogue with them for about 15 months, including with the company MD, who assured me that they would be happy to supply me with a tank. The only problem was that, in order to start the process for them to order the special material that they use for road car tanks, they would have to send me an invoice. Which they never did. In 15 months of my calling and e-mailing them numerous times. I came to the conclusion that, if they are so unreliable about the simple matter of sending out a bit of paperwork, how could I rely on their ability to deliver me the tank in an acceptable time?
A concern about bag tanks that no one could allay was that the technology of bag tanks was not designed for modern road car fuels containing ethanol: over time, would the ethanol damage the tank lining? As you say, bag tanks have proven themselves in racing cars, but in racing cars the same lot of fuel is not going to sit there undisturbed for many months. In bag tanks' other common use, in airplanes, the tanks do not contain petrol. According to the manufacturers themselves, although they were 'pretty sure' that petrol with ethanol would not seriously damage the interior of their tanks, they had little empirical data to support that expectation. And, as I said, one of them was already supplying tanks that had a chronic leakage problem.
There is a third British company that makes bag tanks using different technology but, because McLaren had had no experience with their product, MSO were not prepared to install one of their tanks in a customer's car.
Hence I felt that the aluminium tank was the way to go. I liked the idea of the bag tank, but it was no longer practicable to use one in my car.

[crosseyedlion]

Many TVRs have aluminium fuel tanks, including racers (with suppression foam) - I have to say I've never seen a fire or fuel leak post accident. Lots of bent tanks but nothing catastrophic. Now that doesn't mean the risks are none existent.

But when you consider most road cars have rusty steel or quite hard plastic tanks i'm generally of the feeling that to get in enough trouble for a bag tank to be the thing that saves you on a road car - the impact itself would have to be so catastrophic you're done for anyway. Post crash fires from fuel tanks in road cars are so incredibly rare - it needs to be in context. I'd be much more worried about ethanol in fuel degrading lines than an alu tank.

[Animal]

Morning Flemke,

I was wondering: when was the last time you managed to get your F1 out for a decent drive? Also, when you last looked at it, did you still have a bit of an "oooh!" moment?

[marine boy]

flemke said:

Was that Ron's first car (which I believe was the brown one), or his second, the silver one?

Was Ron's first car in Creighton Brown

What a lovely gentleman Creighton was too!

[thegreenhell]

Given its location in a McLaren F1, if you have an accident that can rupture a fuel tank then you probably have other things to worry about.

I see that the Lanzante aluminium tanks are wrapped in Kevlar anyway - https://www.instagram.com/paul_lanzante_ltd/p/Cdob...

[crosseyedlion]

thegreenhell said:

Given its location in a McLaren F1, if you have an accident that can rupture a fuel tank then you probably have other things to worry about.

I see that the Lanzante aluminium tanks are wrapped in Kevlar anyway - https://www.instagram.com/paul_lanzante_ltd/p/Cdob...

The only counter argument to my own is perhaps its at greater risk of being crushed by the drivetrain in a rear impact or heavy frontal.

[WCZ]

marine boy said:

Was pioneering stuff back in the day, great fun too, productionising F1 composite technology, materials and processes to build a production road car

£3,000 worth of structual adhesive per car and that's without inflation? that's a hell of a lot of glue esp buying with the discounts they must buy it in at!

[raftom]

marine boy said:

Just found this in my loft stash of McLaren F1 work chod





Was pioneering stuff back in the day, great fun too, productionising F1 composite technology, materials and processes to build a production road car.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that. Is there any ballpark figure of how many square meters of cloth are needed for each car?

[BunkMoreland]

ROADRUNNER3 said:

Those overhead lights at Retromobile are absolutely brutal. I shot that ex-George Harrison F1 in the studio, and this is a true, accurate representation of its colour - Aubergine.

Its one of those colours that "changes" in the light






Source: TFJJ



Its grown on me over the years, though "my" hypothetical F1 would be neared the deepest of deep purples of the P1 press car P1OOV (Which is the smae colour as Harry Metcalfe's 650s)








To ROADRUNNER3. Have you ever approached Mr Flemke to see if he'd like the full studio photo experience? Your website has great work btw

[flemke]

marine boy said:

flemke said:

Was that Ron's first car (which I believe was the brown one), or his second, the silver one?

Was Ron's first car in Creighton Brown

What a lovely gentleman Creighton was too!

What I was told by the man who bought the brown car from McLaren Cars Ltd was that it had originally been ordered by Ron in brown (#025, I believe) but, when Ron saw it in the flesh, he disliked the colour, told them to find a customer to buy it, and had them build for him a new car in silver, which ended up being chassis #050. When my car was in build, Ron saw its high mirrors and told them that he wanted them on his car, which became the second with those mirrors.

[flemke]

Animal said:

Morning Flemke,

I was wondering: when was the last time you managed to get your F1 out for a decent drive? Also, when you last looked at it, did you still have a bit of an "oooh!" moment?

We all have our own definitions of 'decent', but pretty much every time I have driven the car the experience has been more than decent.
When I last looked at it (quite recently), I did indeed think 'Oooh'. Obviously I am biased, although on the other hand I have spent a big chunk of my life designing things and making decisions about visual aesthetics. In any case, although several F1s look quite nice, as far as I am concerned mine is by far the best looking F1 and is always a pleasure to look at - especially in bright light when the depth and subtle brilliance of the paint really stand out.

[100SRV]

F1natic said:

I was told by my certifier that aluminium tanks are durable if they are of a flanged construction, which prevents the tank walls from "oil canning" and focusing fatigue cracks onto the welds in the corners due to the fact that the bent flange edge creates a stiffener that prevents the flex from working the weld. Is this the style that MSO puts in?

Do you mean the process of embossing, similar to the pressed indentations on jerry cans and similar sheet metal containers?

[F1natic]

100SRV said:

Do you mean the process of embossing, similar to the pressed indentations on jerry cans and similar sheet metal containers?

That is certainly important to help stiffen the flat panels against the flex caused by fuel sloshing around, baffling is very important too, but I am talking about the flanges formed at the corner joints. Aircraft fuel tanks are a good example, here is one from a small light aircraft wing tank and some B25 bay tanks.

Edited by F1natic on Tuesday 6th August 02:34

[vaderface]

Just watching some vids of Ralph Lauren,s collection and seen a F1 Amritech version amongs his others. Never heard of it before.
Unluckily i found a pic of the front of it, but cant find a pic to see how they destroyed the rear. Any ideas anyone?

[RustyMX5]

vaderface said:

Just watching some vids of Ralph Lauren,s collection and seen a F1 Amritech version amongs his others. Never heard of it before.
Unluckily i found a pic of the front of it, but cant find a pic to see how they destroyed the rear. Any ideas anyone?

I stumbled across this pic and it looks like it's just a thin blister across the back







Obtained from here

Edited by RustyMX5 on Tuesday 6th August 15:05

[vaderface]

Ahhh not as bad as I was expecting.
Was thinking it was going to be like the massive USA bump stop things like on the modern Buggatti,s.
Thanks!
Edit, just seen an old ebay advert to buy it. $150k back then

[BunkMoreland]

vaderface said:

Just watching some vids of Ralph Lauren,s collection and seen a F1 Amritech version amongs his others. Never heard of it before.
Unluckily i found a pic of the front of it, but cant find a pic to see how they destroyed the rear. Any ideas anyone?

My understanding is that pretty much as soon as those cars reached their USA owners, the Amritech parts innocently fell off and into a dumpster!

[ColdZinc]

I've only dipped into this thread previously, but this week decided to start from the beginning because it is such a wonderful haven for this site:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I'm only 6 pages in and I'm hooked. I got seriously derailed by reading the Morgan Grenfell v Arrows cases referred to early in Vol 1. It's going to take a while to catch up with everything! I've ticked off a lot of driving dreams. One that's left is to be on the Nurburgring the same time as an F1, but never gonna happen.

Flemke, you said this on page 5 of Vol 1:

back in 2005 flemke said:

I am under a bit of a unique legal obligation not to be too critical of certain things.

Are you able to expand on the nature of this legal obligation now?

[flemke]

ColdZinc said:

I've only dipped into this thread previously, but this week decided to start from the beginning because it is such a wonderful haven for this site:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I'm only 6 pages in and I'm hooked. I got seriously derailed by reading the Morgan Grenfell v Arrows cases referred to early in Vol 1. It's going to take a while to catch up with everything! I've ticked off a lot of driving dreams. One that's left is to be on the Nurburgring the same time as an F1, but never gonna happen.

Flemke, you said this on page 5 of Vol 1:

back in 2005 flemke said:

I am under a bit of a unique legal obligation not to be too critical of certain things.

Are you able to expand on the nature of this legal obligation now?

Not specifically, but suffice to say that over the years I have explained the changes that I made.