What do people mean when they say a car "handles well"
Discussion
J4CKO said:
I think there is an element of if something looks like it handles well, people assume it does.
So, low suspension, big wheels, wide stand etc, like most modern Audis, there is this exception based on how they look that then handling will be amazing, and of course it will be acceptable but a front wheel drive A4 isnt going to be much more than capable and effective, if a bit dull.
Its a bit like aerodynamics, laymen (like myself) make the mistake that if something looks streamlined and aerodynamic, then it must cut through the air effectively but its way, way more complicated than that. Hence all the wind tunnels, aerodynamicists and computing power they use, and not just a bloke with a pencil drawing something that looks swoopy any more.
Agreed. Just the other day I was following an Audi S4 V8 (I think) in my Swift Sport. He's easily got enough muscle to blow me into the weeds. But, apart from being polished to an inch of it's life (deep black paint), the wheels were huge, the car was lowered and there (seemed) to be about enough space for an A4 sheet of paper between the tyre and the wheel arch. Which meant that he was going round corners / roundabouts slower than most OAP's do. LOL.So, low suspension, big wheels, wide stand etc, like most modern Audis, there is this exception based on how they look that then handling will be amazing, and of course it will be acceptable but a front wheel drive A4 isnt going to be much more than capable and effective, if a bit dull.
Its a bit like aerodynamics, laymen (like myself) make the mistake that if something looks streamlined and aerodynamic, then it must cut through the air effectively but its way, way more complicated than that. Hence all the wind tunnels, aerodynamicists and computing power they use, and not just a bloke with a pencil drawing something that looks swoopy any more.
Later on that same day, when barrelling down a back road - came up behind a BMW 3-series - a 330ci I think. Same thing, big wheels - no space left in the wheel arches. This back road was really bumpy... he tried putting his foot down but I could tell that there was no suspension travel left and his car seemed to be hopping over the bumps. He was struggling to get the car over 60 MPH safely. My Swift Sport with stock suspension would easily go ~90 MPH down that same road - and safely. Simply because it has the suspension travel to deal with the imperfections of the UK's great roads.
So, whilst Audi man and BMW man have quicker cars - they couldn't actually deploy the performance onboard because of the limitations created by big wheels and very low suspension and especially with very little suspension travel. In the real world, down our very crappy UK roads - the Swift Sport is actually quicker.
Pose value of course - the 'stanced' look, looks great. I dunno - maybe some people just want to pose in their cars - even if it means that they will destroy 50% of their cars ability down any given road.
DazzaSport said:
Later on that same day, when barrelling down a back road - came up behind a BMW 3-series - a 330ci I think. Same thing, big wheels - no space left in the wheel arches. This back road was really bumpy... he tried putting his foot down but I could tell that there was no suspension travel left and his car seemed to be hopping over the bumps. He was struggling to get the car over 60 MPH safely. My Swift Sport with stock suspension would easily go ~90 MPH down that same road - and safely. Simply because it has the suspension travel to deal with the imperfections of the UK's great roads.
Suspension engineers want long suspension travel otherwise their options are limited and they get backed into a corner. Excessively high spring and damper rates are unavoidable.Lowered cars (with rubber band tyres) look great but there is a penalty to pay. Minor advantage of reduced lateral weight transfer is virtually insignificant on the road.
The old reference of 1.5 Hz body frequency seems to have gone out the window. Sporting modern car feel more like 2.0 Hz possibly higher. The art of great dynamics whilst maintaining acceptable ride quality appears to be lost.
For me "handling well" isn't about out-and-out mechanical grip. It's about inspiring confidence in being able to drive the car as quickly as you want to, and knowing if you overestimate your abilities, it's not going to immediately and mercilessly boot you in the head.
Years back, I went to a trackday at Bedford Autodrome with a couple of mates, one driving a heavily modified mk1 Focus RS and another in his Westfield.
Predictably, on the day we went it chucked it down - standing water all over the track. The Focus understeered off several times and the driver ended up coming back in because he wasn't having much fun battling to put the power down whilst also keeping it on the tarmac. The Westfield likewise kept exiting the track backwards until the driver came back to the pit lane and waited for it to stop raining.
I had a blast belting round the track this entire time in... my boggo E36 318is. Did I have "grip" 100% of the time? Nope! Did I go varying degrees of sideways frequently? Hell yes! But each time I did, I knew it was coming, I could control it, correct it with minor inputs, and keep the car going round at the limit of my abilities without going off the track. I let my mates who'd brought the other two cars have a go in it as well and they both came back with massive grins, very impressed at what my lowly 140bhp 3 series could do.
Was it a sports car, or even a fast version of an E36? Not in the least. But it handled well and put a massive grin on my face.
Years back, I went to a trackday at Bedford Autodrome with a couple of mates, one driving a heavily modified mk1 Focus RS and another in his Westfield.
Predictably, on the day we went it chucked it down - standing water all over the track. The Focus understeered off several times and the driver ended up coming back in because he wasn't having much fun battling to put the power down whilst also keeping it on the tarmac. The Westfield likewise kept exiting the track backwards until the driver came back to the pit lane and waited for it to stop raining.
I had a blast belting round the track this entire time in... my boggo E36 318is. Did I have "grip" 100% of the time? Nope! Did I go varying degrees of sideways frequently? Hell yes! But each time I did, I knew it was coming, I could control it, correct it with minor inputs, and keep the car going round at the limit of my abilities without going off the track. I let my mates who'd brought the other two cars have a go in it as well and they both came back with massive grins, very impressed at what my lowly 140bhp 3 series could do.
Was it a sports car, or even a fast version of an E36? Not in the least. But it handled well and put a massive grin on my face.
2cool2cool said:
So I have a peugeot 306 HDI, and people always tell me they have great handling.
I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
It’s all in the wording!!!…. Really not that deep at all….. lol….I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
-Lummox- said:
For me "handling well" isn't about out-and-out mechanical grip. It's about inspiring confidence in being able to drive the car as quickly as you want to, and knowing if you overestimate your abilities, it's not going to immediately and mercilessly boot you in the head.
Years back, I went to a trackday at Bedford Autodrome with a couple of mates, one driving a heavily modified mk1 Focus RS and another in his Westfield.
Predictably, on the day we went it chucked it down - standing water all over the track. The Focus understeered off several times and the driver ended up coming back in because he wasn't having much fun battling to put the power down whilst also keeping it on the tarmac. The Westfield likewise kept exiting the track backwards until the driver came back to the pit lane and waited for it to stop raining.
I had a blast belting round the track this entire time in... my boggo E36 318is. Did I have "grip" 100% of the time? Nope! Did I go varying degrees of sideways frequently? Hell yes! But each time I did, I knew it was coming, I could control it, correct it with minor inputs, and keep the car going round at the limit of my abilities without going off the track. I let my mates who'd brought the other two cars have a go in it as well and they both came back with massive grins, very impressed at what my lowly 140bhp 3 series could do.
Was it a sports car, or even a fast version of an E36? Not in the least. But it handled well and put a massive grin on my face.
318is in e30 or e36 was a hoot!! Years back, I went to a trackday at Bedford Autodrome with a couple of mates, one driving a heavily modified mk1 Focus RS and another in his Westfield.
Predictably, on the day we went it chucked it down - standing water all over the track. The Focus understeered off several times and the driver ended up coming back in because he wasn't having much fun battling to put the power down whilst also keeping it on the tarmac. The Westfield likewise kept exiting the track backwards until the driver came back to the pit lane and waited for it to stop raining.
I had a blast belting round the track this entire time in... my boggo E36 318is. Did I have "grip" 100% of the time? Nope! Did I go varying degrees of sideways frequently? Hell yes! But each time I did, I knew it was coming, I could control it, correct it with minor inputs, and keep the car going round at the limit of my abilities without going off the track. I let my mates who'd brought the other two cars have a go in it as well and they both came back with massive grins, very impressed at what my lowly 140bhp 3 series could do.
Was it a sports car, or even a fast version of an E36? Not in the least. But it handled well and put a massive grin on my face.
2cool2cool said:
So I have a peugeot 306 HDI, and people always tell me they have great handling.
I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
Ever driven anything comparable?I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
A quick stint in a MK4 golf will show you what people mean when they say that a 306 handles well.
It is all relative though, a 306 is a good handling family car, but step in to something like an Integra Type R of the same era and you'll think the 306 handles badly.
braddo said:
bigothunter said:
A power circuit like Goodwood perhaps? Where a car without handling can outrun a car with good handling (mini), maybe…Never ceases to amaze how quickly 'sorted' early historic Mustangs can be. As standard they handle like a Tesco's trolley but a few appropriate mods including under-body bracing, can make them indecently quick and mangeable. As ex-F1 driver Max Chilton demonstrates:
MattsCar said:
Ever driven anything comparable?
A quick stint in a MK4 golf will show you what people mean when they say that a 306 handles well.
It is all relative though, a 306 is a good handling family car, but step in to something like an Integra Type R of the same era and you'll think the 306 handles badly.
Don't often get to drive a powerful FWD car. Most of the powerful stuff I drive is RWD.A quick stint in a MK4 golf will show you what people mean when they say that a 306 handles well.
It is all relative though, a 306 is a good handling family car, but step in to something like an Integra Type R of the same era and you'll think the 306 handles badly.
Experienced a few hundred miles over the last few days with a FWD package boasting 200ps, 320Nm in 1283kg kerb. Despite all the bells and whistles, the chassis just about copes with this level of wheel torque especially in the lower gears. Haven't checked the spec but 1st gear feels torque truncated.
Any more torque would be an embarrassment. Limitations of FWD can only be masked not corrected. Handling soon becomes compromised.
Edited by bigothunter on Friday 14th July 00:00
bigothunter said:
Don't often get to drive a powerful FWD car. Most of the powerful stuff I drive is RWD.
Experienced a few hundred miles over the last few days with a FWD package boasting 200ps, 320Nm in 1283kg kerb. Despite all the bells and whistles, the chassis just about copes with this level of wheel torque especially in the lower gears. Haven't checked the spec but 1st gear feels torque truncated.
Any more torque would be an embarrassment. Limitations of FWD can only be masked not corrected. Handling soon becomes compromised.
What car?Experienced a few hundred miles over the last few days with a FWD package boasting 200ps, 320Nm in 1283kg kerb. Despite all the bells and whistles, the chassis just about copes with this level of wheel torque especially in the lower gears. Haven't checked the spec but 1st gear feels torque truncated.
Any more torque would be an embarrassment. Limitations of FWD can only be masked not corrected. Handling soon becomes compromised.
Edited by bigothunter on Friday 14th July 00:00
All these glowing reviews of Focus RS with RevoKnuckle suspension, numerous RS Meganes, Hyundai N cars, Civic Type R's that are pushing over 300BHP would beg to differ surely?
Not doubting you that a RWD car is more pure, but this isn't the 1980's and we are not buying/driving stodgy Saab Turbos anymore.
MattsCar said:
What car?
All these glowing reviews of Focus RS with RevoKnuckle suspension, numerous RS Meganes, Hyundai N cars, Civic Type R's that are pushing over 300BHP would beg to differ surely?
Not doubting you that a RWD car is more pure, but this isn't the 1980's and we are not buying/driving stodgy Saab Turbos anymore.
Absolutely. FWD cars are not a monolith. I ran both of my cup Meganes on track for a number of years here and on the continent. Out of the box they actually handle better than most RWD performance cars out of the box.All these glowing reviews of Focus RS with RevoKnuckle suspension, numerous RS Meganes, Hyundai N cars, Civic Type R's that are pushing over 300BHP would beg to differ surely?
Not doubting you that a RWD car is more pure, but this isn't the 1980's and we are not buying/driving stodgy Saab Turbos anymore.
It's essentially about set up. And RS just massively optimised that set up for handling, in a way that most RWD cars aren't, although I can see the reason for that in terms of tractive predictability for your average driver.
Having said that, RWD will always have an inherent advantage, particularly past a certain power (typically 300ps) when optimised but the gap can be far smaller than assumed, although this also includes an element of subjectivity.
I have also driven a MK3 Meg with a fairly aggressive Drexler diff, which is a fantastic device that is even better than the std GKN unit.
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 14th July 01:25
-Lummox- said:
For me "handling well" isn't about out-and-out mechanical grip. It's about inspiring confidence in being able to drive the car as quickly as you want to, and knowing if you overestimate your abilities, it's not going to immediately and mercilessly boot you in the head.
I agree with this, and have always felt "handling" and "roadholding" were two different things. As an example, on an A-road near me, there's a longish sweeping bend which has some small ridges on it but is generally decent tarmac. I've driven several different cars round it in my time, but three experiences have stayed with me:(1) Wife's BMW 320d M-Sport company car. Obviously it's a BMW on M-Sport suspension so it handles brilliantly, right? Well, not so. I never took it round the above bend at more than about 55mph because whilst it barely exhibited any body roll at all, it felt so twitchy at that point, i was worried that it would suddenly give up and fling me into a hedge.
(2) Wife's Jaguar XE R-Sport. company car It would go round it at 75mph with more body roll than the BMW but, other than that, very little fuss. Plenty of grip and it felt solid and secure.
And the surprise one?
(3) Ford Scorpio 2.3 GhiaX. It would go round at 65-70 without feeling like it was on the edge but the big difference between this and the other two was that you had to ignore the epic body roll!
So, to me that makes the Jag the best handling but yet it wasn't the one with the least body roll. Equally, the one that had far more body roll would go round faster than the car with the least.
So what do we conclude from this? I've no idea, to be honest...
bigothunter said:
Haven't checked the spec but 1st gear feels torque truncated.
99% of the time cars are torque limited in 1st (and sometimes 2nd) to prevent them from killing gearboxes rather than for any other reasons (such as torque steer etc). I like a RWD as much as the next man but the unfortunate reality is that 99% of those are setup to understeer "out of the box". Even decent handling RWD stuff you need to be putting fairly significant amounts of throttle in before its going to do anything other than understeer.
Certainly in terms of FWD mine will head straight on for the nearest field if you just plant the throttle with the TCS off but if you drive it less like Clarkson in a Vectra and use a reasonable amount of power it actually tightens its line under power[1]...although in equal fairness most FWD *are* dull dross.!
[1] I hesitate to call this oversteer as while it's probably the correct term it tends to imply the rear rotating more.
Deranged Rover said:
I agree with this, and have always felt "handling" and "roadholding" were two different things. As an example, on an A-road near me, there's a longish sweeping bend which has some small ridges on it but is generally decent tarmac. I've driven several different cars round it in my time, but three experiences have stayed with me:
(1) Wife's BMW 320d M-Sport company car. Obviously it's a BMW on M-Sport suspension so it handles brilliantly, right? Well, not so. I never took it round the above bend at more than about 55mph because whilst it barely exhibited any body roll at all, it felt so twitchy at that point, i was worried that it would suddenly give up and fling me into a hedge.
(2) Wife's Jaguar XE R-Sport. company car It would go round it at 75mph with more body roll than the BMW but, other than that, very little fuss. Plenty of grip and it felt solid and secure.
And the surprise one?
(3) Ford Scorpio 2.3 GhiaX. It would go round at 65-70 without feeling like it was on the edge but the big difference between this and the other two was that you had to ignore the epic body roll!
So, to me that makes the Jag the best handling but yet it wasn't the one with the least body roll. Equally, the one that had far more body roll would go round faster than the car with the least.
So what do we conclude from this? I've no idea, to be honest...
Excessively high spring and damper rates detract from grip on bumpy or ridged surfaces. Sharp 'unstable' feel compromises driver confidence and handling feedback.(1) Wife's BMW 320d M-Sport company car. Obviously it's a BMW on M-Sport suspension so it handles brilliantly, right? Well, not so. I never took it round the above bend at more than about 55mph because whilst it barely exhibited any body roll at all, it felt so twitchy at that point, i was worried that it would suddenly give up and fling me into a hedge.
(2) Wife's Jaguar XE R-Sport. company car It would go round it at 75mph with more body roll than the BMW but, other than that, very little fuss. Plenty of grip and it felt solid and secure.
And the surprise one?
(3) Ford Scorpio 2.3 GhiaX. It would go round at 65-70 without feeling like it was on the edge but the big difference between this and the other two was that you had to ignore the epic body roll!
So, to me that makes the Jag the best handling but yet it wasn't the one with the least body roll. Equally, the one that had far more body roll would go round faster than the car with the least.
So what do we conclude from this? I've no idea, to be honest...
Modern trend towards very stiff road cars optimised for smooth race circuits, makes no sense. Excellent dynamics can be achieved across the whole range of road surfaces drivers encounter without resulting to extremes.
MattsCar said:
2cool2cool said:
So I have a peugeot 306 HDI, and people always tell me they have great handling.
I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
Ever driven anything comparable?I do like the feel of it, but I really don't know how the average driver is determining they "have good handling"
Is everyone secretly a race driver ?
A quick stint in a MK4 golf will show you what people mean when they say that a 306 handles well.
It is all relative though, a 306 is a good handling family car, but step in to something like an Integra Type R of the same era and you'll think the 306 handles badly.
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