Best handling 'ordinary' cars?
Discussion
Kawasicki said:
I sometimes tune car suspension for evaluation drives, where a group of people with a decent skill level drive the car and provide feedback to me. When I look at my emails after the drive, there could be 8 emails diplomatically commenting that the car is a f-ing death trap, and 2 emails breathlessly describing the car as the best handling vehicle ever. Those 2 emails usually come from the best/most nuts/tyres on fire drivers. What would you do with this feedback?
Like any opinion, frame it in the context of the prejudices of the person offering.I'm not a fan of oversteer and prefer to avoid cars that have a loose rear end. But I am also more of an 8/10ths not a 10/10ths driver. It's also my experience that people who like oversteer like to drive on the edge.
Kawasicki said:
s m said:
Kawasicki said:
I love lift off oversteer….
Looking at the number of votes for French hatches it seems you’re not alone Interesting that some cars are demonised for it more than others where it is seen as a desirable trait
I sometimes tune car suspension for evaluation drives, where a group of people with a decent skill level drive the car and provide feedback to me. When I look at my emails after the drive, there could be 8 emails diplomatically commenting that the car is a f-ing death trap, and 2 emails breathlessly describing the car as the best handling vehicle ever. Those 2 emails usually come from the best/most nuts/tyres on fire drivers. What would you do with this feedback?
So if I’ve been understanding it correctly it seems that stability and predictability is what sets the base of a good handling car these days, based on the manufacturers’ requirements (the few I’ve worked with at least).
itcaptainslow said:
Must admit I disagree entirely about the Corsa C. Drove plenty when I worked at Vauxhall and every single one was a turgid affair with sloppy steering, poor damping, bugger all front end grip (partially down to Vauxhall making Pirelli P6000's standard fit, mind!) and inaccurate gear change. The whole car just had the air of a complete apathy to any kind of driving enjoyment.
The comparable Fiesta (the Mk6?) at the time was a joy; the 1.4 Ghia I drove as a courtesy car was beautifully balanced and damped, had well weighted, feelsome steering with a slick gearshift. The ST I drove later on as a demonstrator delivered much the same traits; just a shame the engine lacked a little fizz.
Must add I'm not a Vauxhall hater by any stretch-I really quite like the Vectra C facelift for instance, especially in Elite V6 or VXR guises.
Surprised by the amount of appreciation for the Corsa C. For the average driver its fantastic: felt planted, minimal roll and pitch, safe and predictable handling which was neutral for the average driver. It liked going round corners but not thrilling. The downfall - handling wise - was its lifeless steering. The comparable Fiesta (the Mk6?) at the time was a joy; the 1.4 Ghia I drove as a courtesy car was beautifully balanced and damped, had well weighted, feelsome steering with a slick gearshift. The ST I drove later on as a demonstrator delivered much the same traits; just a shame the engine lacked a little fizz.
Must add I'm not a Vauxhall hater by any stretch-I really quite like the Vectra C facelift for instance, especially in Elite V6 or VXR guises.
The Corsa C moved the game on and set the standard for modern cars we know today IMO. Felt big, roomy, safe, and comfortable enough for a small cheap car. Worth bearing in mind it came out before the much appreciated and arguably better handling MkVI Ford Fiesta.
Like OP I started off with a Pug 106 1.1. It had great turn-in but I hated everything else. The rear was too high and too soft with typical French roly-poly handling. OEM skinny tyres didn't.
106 Quicksilver was a marked improvement. IIRC it was GTI with lame 1.4 8v which felt quick enough at the time.
CABC said:
MC Bodge said:
Kawasicki said:
Is it better if a car starts to oversteer at the limit, or understeer?
It may depend what you mean as at the limit.For most purposes, as for most cars, understeer. Going too fast around a bend on throttle, the front will begin to push wide. Reducing the throttle can bring it back.
If the car is beginning to oversteer whilst going around a bend on the throttle (not using excess throttle to deliberately break traction), reducing the accelerator input even a little could result in more oversteer, leaving few options. Not desirable for most drivers in most scenarios.
A sharp lift-off of the throttle producing oversteer is a different matter and can be used to advantage, but again, most drivers would be safer with a car that doesn't suddenly snap around if they lift off too sharply as they turn -Yaw control/ESP systems help prevent this too.
entropy said:
Surprised by the amount of appreciation for the Corsa C. For the average driver its fantastic: felt planted, minimal roll and pitch, safe and predictable handling which was neutral for the average driver. It liked going round corners but not thrilling. The downfall - handling wise - was its lifeless steering.
The Corsa C moved the game on and set the standard for modern cars we know today IMO. Felt big, roomy, safe, and comfortable enough for a small cheap car. Worth bearing in mind it came out before the much appreciated and arguably better handling MkVI Ford Fiesta.
So, the Corsa C isn't one of the best handling 'ordinary' cars then? The Fiesta before and after being better?The Corsa C moved the game on and set the standard for modern cars we know today IMO. Felt big, roomy, safe, and comfortable enough for a small cheap car. Worth bearing in mind it came out before the much appreciated and arguably better handling MkVI Ford Fiesta.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 30th January 18:36
Kawasicki said:
That’s what I find so interesting.
I sometimes tune car suspension for evaluation drives, where a group of people with a decent skill level drive the car and provide feedback to me. When I look at my emails after the drive, there could be 8 emails diplomatically commenting that the car is a f-ing death trap, and 2 emails breathlessly describing the car as the best handling vehicle ever. Those 2 emails usually come from the best/most nuts/tyres on fire drivers. What would you do with this feedback?
Are they driving on the road? For normal day to day use or spirited driving on quiet, entertaining roads?I sometimes tune car suspension for evaluation drives, where a group of people with a decent skill level drive the car and provide feedback to me. When I look at my emails after the drive, there could be 8 emails diplomatically commenting that the car is a f-ing death trap, and 2 emails breathlessly describing the car as the best handling vehicle ever. Those 2 emails usually come from the best/most nuts/tyres on fire drivers. What would you do with this feedback?
Huff said:
Issigonis' Mini, before the rush.
The singular most educational, how to do more with less, and engaging little thing. Proof too, that more power isn't remotely an essential to total driver engagement.
I remember a Car Magazine test of 10 hot hatches ~ 1990's. This included the 205 Gti (which won) and Renault 5 turbo. According to LJK the 'Chili Souper' was the best handling but had the worst ride. Suspension based on springs obey Hooke's law, however the Mini which had lumps of rubber would get more firm the more it was compressed. This was hindered by very limited suspension travel, so ride was abysmal. The singular most educational, how to do more with less, and engaging little thing. Proof too, that more power isn't remotely an essential to total driver engagement.
I've scanned through this thread which has come back to life in 2024.
The Ford new edge design era is getting a lot of praise. We had a mk 1.5 focus for a couple of years, and it was a competent car, though the 1.7cdti engine was probably a bit heavier than the petrols.
However
Immediately before running the focus, we had a Alfa 156 (1.6TS) and had both for a while.
The Alfa beat the focus hands down on handling, in any metric. It was more supple, eager to be thrown into corners, whatever set of bends I went at, the car just seemed to eat them up and want more.
The 156 and 147 share the same underpinning, as did the GT I believe.
These Alfa's were far less common than fords though, which is why there's probably not the exposure to them.
Incidentally the Alfa was as reliable as the ford too in it's time with us, but the saloon boot was impractical and it really needed another 80-100bhp to make it a great car.
The Ford new edge design era is getting a lot of praise. We had a mk 1.5 focus for a couple of years, and it was a competent car, though the 1.7cdti engine was probably a bit heavier than the petrols.
However
Immediately before running the focus, we had a Alfa 156 (1.6TS) and had both for a while.
The Alfa beat the focus hands down on handling, in any metric. It was more supple, eager to be thrown into corners, whatever set of bends I went at, the car just seemed to eat them up and want more.
The 156 and 147 share the same underpinning, as did the GT I believe.
These Alfa's were far less common than fords though, which is why there's probably not the exposure to them.
Incidentally the Alfa was as reliable as the ford too in it's time with us, but the saloon boot was impractical and it really needed another 80-100bhp to make it a great car.
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