Burglary at remote Peak District farm, murder arrest
Discussion
Zetec-S said:
I'd be interested to know what statistics show that gun crime is higher now than when they were banned?
Appreciate this data only covers 2003-19 but it shows a clear decline over that period.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
I agree with your other points regarding police/crime in general.
Homicides by firearm:Appreciate this data only covers 2003-19 but it shows a clear decline over that period.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
I agree with your other points regarding police/crime in general.
Clearly the handgun ban had no effect - all those handguns removed from circulation, yet numbers went up enormously before coming back down to basically the same level as pre-ban. (And yes I know this isn’t population weighted).
Since then there’s been a fall-off:
My point was that the ban didn’t obviously have any effect. Handgun crime is almost entirely (and was pre-ban) committed with illegally-held weapons, whilst theft of legally-held pistols was a tiny part of the supply equation.
As for wider gun crime, the stats get a little messy. But broadly the trends have followed those above, and tend to be correlated with other things.
At the same time, as we know, knife crime has increased dramatically. Society has got a lot more violent; the constrained supply of guns just means knives are used instead. But if you’re going to defend your rural farm against knife-wielding attackers, you’re going to demand a gun, not hand-to-hand combat training…
Caddyshack said:
In actual fact, you can reasonably simply own a legal 9mm semi auto in England, you have to be a member of a target shooting club and the 9mm must have a dummy silencer plus a weight bar from the grip base, it then falls under rifle laws and can be used and held legally.
Farmers, and it was a farmer in the OP, can also legally own a large bore pistol, often revolvers in 357 magnum locked to 2 rounds capacity for animal despatch.
You describe a long barrel pistol. You can not have this in 9mm. It must be in .22 Rim Fire. I have a Walther PPQ exactly as you describe, but its in .22RF not 9mm. You CAN have a revolver in 9mm but the OAL must be 24" or greater. Farmers, and it was a farmer in the OP, can also legally own a large bore pistol, often revolvers in 357 magnum locked to 2 rounds capacity for animal despatch.
The only place in E/W/S/NI a civilian can own a 9mm semi auto without having to jump through a lot of hoops is Northern Ireland. There you just need to be a member of a club, like the old days.
The law starts to get murky when you get into section 7, so we will ignore that as lets be honest out of the hundreds of thousands of FAC holders only a hand full are section 7.
As for section 5, yep some people do get authority under section 5. But again its a tiny, tiny number of people. Film and TV, maybe 10 guys in the UK with authority for sec 5. There will be a handful of people who get authority from the Home Office, the kind of people who dont exist... and beyond that you are down to stalkers and vets and they are going to be restricted to a couple of rounds and I believe semi auto is currently off the table for new applications. Farmers are never given section 5 authority for pistols, not that I know of. Maybe if they are a stalker, but then the use is going to be for HD only.
Beyond that the only way you can realistically shoot "pistols" legally in England is to get a muzzle loading revolver like a Westlake in .357. Thats about as close as you can get if you are not interested in cap and ball revolvers.
It would just be easier to become a Registered Firearms Dealer tbh.
skwdenyer said:
Clearly the handgun ban had no effect - all those handguns removed from circulation, yet numbers went up enormously before coming back down to basically the same level as pre-ban. (And yes I know this isn’t population weighted).
Fair enough, homicides might not have changed significantly. But overall firearm offences have significantly reduced, so the statistics would suggest that the ban has actually had a very big effect, surely?Pit Pony said:
I'm not sure that whatever previous encounters with the world she might have had, justified putting the s
ts up us.
We were accused of bringing death and abortion into her farm from.the big city.
Farmers are extremely fearful of foot and mouth. When the consequences of an infection might be your livelihood ruined, you take an interest in idiot walkers that get themselves lost on your land. Same happened to me, and I got two barrels up my nose and told to quickly leave the property. ts up us.We were accused of bringing death and abortion into her farm from.the big city.
Edited by popeyewhite on Friday 3rd May 18:31
skwdenyer said:
Zetec-S said:
I'd be interested to know what statistics show that gun crime is higher now than when they were banned?
Appreciate this data only covers 2003-19 but it shows a clear decline over that period.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
I agree with your other points regarding police/crime in general.
Homicides by firearm:Appreciate this data only covers 2003-19 but it shows a clear decline over that period.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
I agree with your other points regarding police/crime in general.
Clearly the handgun ban had no effect - all those handguns removed from circulation, yet numbers went up enormously before coming back down to basically the same level as pre-ban. (And yes I know this isn’t population weighted).
Since then there’s been a fall-off:
My point was that the ban didn’t obviously have any effect. Handgun crime is almost entirely (and was pre-ban) committed with illegally-held weapons, whilst theft of legally-held pistols was a tiny part of the supply equation.
As for wider gun crime, the stats get a little messy. But broadly the trends have followed those above, and tend to be correlated with other things.
At the same time, as we know, knife crime has increased dramatically. Society has got a lot more violent; the constrained supply of guns just means knives are used instead. But if you’re going to defend your rural farm against knife-wielding attackers, you’re going to demand a gun, not hand-to-hand combat training…
Fermit said:
A friend of my fathers is (now a retired) Policeman. He once gave me some advice, to state, if you'd harmed/killed an intruder. 'Officer, he was coming right at me'. They don't like burglars any more than we do.
One of my friends was mugged and defended himself fairly robustly. One of the coppers arresting him said something along the lines of "I expect you thought your life was in danger". A not so subtle hint as to what to say in interview.TheJimi said:
Drumroll said:
TheJimi said:
Where does he say anything to the contrary?
I’d take a 9mm every time in a house.The whole post came across as a bit "walty" to me.
Edited by Drumroll on Friday 3rd May 10:46
Saying he'd prefer a 9mm over a shotgun in a house isn't walty, imo - he's just stating a preference given a hypothetical scenario and backs up his preference with the reasoning behind it.
Pit Pony said:
As we headed across an empty field towards said farm, completely lost, an angry woman came storming out, with shot gun, pointing it directly at us.
That would be an utterly stupid thing for someone to do now, in the days of mobile phones. However, far to many farmers are completely ignorant on trespassing, and do go shouting and threatening people who are lost and wander of a path, a civil matter, yet think criminal blocking of rights of way is all fine and dandy because it suits them. Many farmers are fine (I have several friends who are farmers), but some are utter t
ts, just like the rest of life, but most of the tts in life don’t have shotguns and vast tracts of land.I do find it interesting how this debate is going. We have several on here saying about being able to have guns to defend ourselves and we have other threads (any one of the USA mass shooting threads) that basically goes on about how bad Americans gun control is and how nobody really needs that many guns etc.
As for the assertion gun control hasn't worked, we really can't answer that one. Just because people are still being killed by guns, does not mean a failure of the legislation.
You could argue that you would expect to see an increase in gun (or any crime) just purely based on the increase in population.
As for the assertion gun control hasn't worked, we really can't answer that one. Just because people are still being killed by guns, does not mean a failure of the legislation.
You could argue that you would expect to see an increase in gun (or any crime) just purely based on the increase in population.
The main problem with UK gun legislation is that it punished law abiding owners by taking away their guns rather than address the problem at hand, which was and still is enforcement and administration of FAC conditions. Hamilton should not have had an FAC, nor should Byrd or Davison, yet the incompetent and inconsistent administration and enforcement goes on.
gotoPzero said:
Caddyshack said:
In actual fact, you can reasonably simply own a legal 9mm semi auto in England, you have to be a member of a target shooting club and the 9mm must have a dummy silencer plus a weight bar from the grip base, it then falls under rifle laws and can be used and held legally.
Farmers, and it was a farmer in the OP, can also legally own a large bore pistol, often revolvers in 357 magnum locked to 2 rounds capacity for animal despatch.
You describe a long barrel pistol. You can not have this in 9mm. It must be in .22 Rim Fire. I have a Walther PPQ exactly as you describe, but its in .22RF not 9mm. You CAN have a revolver in 9mm but the OAL must be 24" or greater. Farmers, and it was a farmer in the OP, can also legally own a large bore pistol, often revolvers in 357 magnum locked to 2 rounds capacity for animal despatch.
The only place in E/W/S/NI a civilian can own a 9mm semi auto without having to jump through a lot of hoops is Northern Ireland. There you just need to be a member of a club, like the old days.
The law starts to get murky when you get into section 7, so we will ignore that as lets be honest out of the hundreds of thousands of FAC holders only a hand full are section 7.
As for section 5, yep some people do get authority under section 5. But again its a tiny, tiny number of people. Film and TV, maybe 10 guys in the UK with authority for sec 5. There will be a handful of people who get authority from the Home Office, the kind of people who dont exist... and beyond that you are down to stalkers and vets and they are going to be restricted to a couple of rounds and I believe semi auto is currently off the table for new applications. Farmers are never given section 5 authority for pistols, not that I know of. Maybe if they are a stalker, but then the use is going to be for HD only.
Beyond that the only way you can realistically shoot "pistols" legally in England is to get a muzzle loading revolver like a Westlake in .357. Thats about as close as you can get if you are not interested in cap and ball revolvers.
It would just be easier to become a Registered Firearms Dealer tbh.
hidetheelephants said:
The main problem with UK gun legislation is that it punished law abiding owners by taking away their guns rather than address the problem at hand, which was and still is enforcement and administration of FAC conditions. Hamilton should not have had an FAC, nor should Byrd or Davison, yet the incompetent and inconsistent administration and enforcement goes on.
Indeed. UK gun legislation is undoubtedly (to my mind) too tight (although in some ways it is actually laxer than US gun control e.g. magazine size for smaller calibres in that there isn't any) but if the alternative is US style rambo retards then maybe it's price we have to pay.For actual self defence I'd probably be looking more at letting women carry around pepper spray and stuff like that.
popeyewhite said:
Pit Pony said:
I'm not sure that whatever previous encounters with the world she might have had, justified putting the sts up us.
We were accused of bringing death and abortion into her farm from.the big city.
Farmers are extremely fearful of foot and mouth. When the consequences of an infection might be your livelihood ruined, you take an interest in idiot walkers that get themselves lost on your land. Same happened to me, and I got two barrels up my nose and told to quickly leave the property. ts up us.We were accused of bringing death and abortion into her farm from.the big city.
Edited by popeyewhite on Friday 3rd May 18:31
Somewhatfoolish said:
For actual self defence I'd probably be looking more at letting women carry around pepper spray and stuff like that.
In this day and age of increasing hysteria, allowing large swathes of the population to discharge noxious substances at will because they decided they felt threatened would be an absolute zoo. Arguably less so than if they all had handguns, admittedly!Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 11th May 06:19
popeyewhite said:
Farmers are extremely fearful of foot and mouth. When the consequences of an infection might be your livelihood ruined, you take an interest in idiot walkers that get themselves lost on your land. Same happened to me, and I got two barrels up my nose and told to quickly leave the property.
Have you any idea what you are talking about? Edited by popeyewhite on Friday 3rd May 18:31
Me walking through several farmers fields is not going to give cattle foot and mouth.
Infection Control when a herd is known to have Foot & Mouth is something different though.
Southerner said:
In this day and age of increasing histeria, allowing large swathes of the population to discharge noxious substances at will because they decided they felt threatened would be an absolute zoo. Arguably less so than if they all had handguns, admittedly!
Just watch any of those police docs on TV, they're all too eager to spray someone or taser them if they have a taser.hairykrishna said:
Fermit said:
A friend of my fathers is (now a retired) Policeman. He once gave me some advice, to state, if you'd harmed/killed an intruder. 'Officer, he was coming right at me'. They don't like burglars any more than we do.
One of my friends was mugged and defended himself fairly robustly. One of the coppers arresting him said something along the lines of "I expect you thought your life was in danger". A not so subtle hint as to what to say in interview.Your life is in perpetual danger. If someone suggests they’ll harm you to get your possessions surely they’ve invited the unknown risk factor and can’t be upset when they get a beating.
UK law is a real dogs dinner of bulls
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