RE: EV sales falter despite new car market growth

[uktrailmonster]

ITP said:

Looks the same as a model 3 to me, just 10% or so bigger? Still a 4 door saloon with a similar power train.

Well I wouldn’t really compare a Model 3 against a 1 series BMW either. But a Model S is really stretching the comparison.

[Who_Goes_Blue]

nickfrog said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Did you run the figures based on buying an heavily depreciated used EV too?

No. It was to demonstrate that for some (many?) the route to an EV is via salary sacrifice on a new vehicle and they will be making a jump from an older car. Using what is quite a fuel/tyre hungry car as a comparison to what is purportedly the panacea of cheap motoring, via the most tax efficient way of acquiring one - I was actually surprised the BMW was so close in total cost. (10k miles per annum in case anyone asks)

[ashenfie]

uktrailmonster said:

ashenfie said:

CMTMB said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Who'd have thought a 10 year old car would be cheaper than a brand new one.

If you try to make out that New EV don't devalue faster than a fast thing then you are deluded. Further from recent experience find a 2nd decent petrol/diesel is really for sensible money and <100,000 miles is really hard.

What you are effectively saying here is that used petrol/diesels are expensive compared to used EVs. So if you want to save money then buy a used EV. The depreciation curve still flattens out eventually.

The other approach is to just run your car for longer, which is proving to be quite successful with most EVs. Plenty of intergalactic mileage EVs still going strong and they don t smell of old oil.

Firstly it's supply and demand, so while used EVs supply is higher than demand the value drops in order to sell them within a reasonable time. ICE car have a good supply of used parts, If timing chain breaks and kills my engine (520D) I can easily source a used one at reasonable cost. While if I had an i5 and the air conditioning failed and fried the battery then you be lucky to find a used one. So its more about risk than actual reliability. Tyres/Suspension are going to be more or less the same either way. Personally i don't chuck fish and chip wrappers in the back of my car.

Suspension/Tyres/Brakes take a heavy pounding and soon rack up a fair few grand in repair bills. If you check your old fish and chip wrapper in the back ICE and EV it's all the same.

[Hungrymc]

Throttlebody said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Smart move keeping the M135i. Low depreciators, and in demand as punters realise the current electric stuff is vanilla. I ve now tucked up my M140i beater. Too good to flog.

Crickey, I swapped my beater daily M4 comp to an EV as ultimately, the M4 increasingly felt a poor compromise - neither sufficiently exciting to be a fun car, nor comfortable and usable enough to be a good everyday car. In part that was all just because it was the modern take on a performance car. But then, I'm here to discuss relative merits of different cars and certainly not intending to troll an internet forum. And of course we all have different tastes and wants in cars and bikes etc.

[Deep Thought]

ITP said:

Deep Thought said:

ITP said:

nickfrog said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Did you run the figures based on buying an heavily depreciated used EV too?

Probably not, but as it was salary sacrifice it will have been based on a 40% PAYE tax break on the monthly price of the EV. Without that it would be more than a smidge.

Sal Sac also includes insurance, maintenance (including tyres), warranty and breakdown cover. Often overlooked when comparing to used car running costs. Also Sal Sac rates arent that great - noone would pay the full price pre tax break.

But then "10 year old used car cheaper to run than brand new one" doesnt really come as a surprise to anyone, surely?

A more realistic comparison would be Approved Used

2022 Model 3 Approved Used for £19,100

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202602180...

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 26th February 14:02

No, the comparison should be a 2016 Tesla to match the age of the bmw. This would be a model S for about 15k with sub 100k miles maybe. Could get one with free supercharging I suppose but would you put 15k into a 10 year old Tesla? Maybe it would be fine.

I was finding a half way house between him going "brand new" and it still being some sort of step upwards in terms of age.

Approved Used is a good idea, particularly for someone looking at EVs for the first time.

Size wise Model 3 is closest to a 1 series.

I guess instead of the question "if i were to spend £40,000 on a new Tesla, would i save anything over keeping my current car?" it becomes "if i were to spend £3,000 on changing my car, how much would i save in ongoing running costs?" That feels more like a real world scenario question.

I doubt anyone goes from a 10 year old car to a brand new £40K with an expectation they're going to save money.

[Deep Thought]

Who_Goes_Blue said:

No. It was to demonstrate that for some (many?) the route to an EV is via salary sacrifice on a new vehicle and they will be making a jump from an older car. Using what is quite a fuel/tyre hungry car as a comparison to what is purportedly the panacea of cheap motoring, via the most tax efficient way of acquiring one - I was actually surprised the BMW was so close in total cost. (10k miles per annum in case anyone asks)

Its cheap running costs, but not necessarily cheap motoring, particularly if you are plugging a brand new car in to the equation rather than say, an Approved Used.

I dont think, "back in the day" i ever thought to myself "would a brand new 320d cost me less than my 10 year old 330i?"

I would say most people going down the Sal Sac route would otherwise be buying / PCPing / Leasing something new / close to new. I dont think anyone goes from a 10 year old car to a new one via Sal Sac with the expectation of saving £££s.

[cerb4.5lee]

Hungrymc said:

Throttlebody said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Smart move keeping the M135i. Low depreciators, and in demand as punters realise the current electric stuff is vanilla. I ve now tucked up my M140i beater. Too good to flog.

Crickey, I swapped my beater daily M4 comp to an EV as ultimately, the M4 increasingly felt a poor compromise - neither sufficiently exciting to be a fun car, nor comfortable and usable enough to be a good everyday car. In part that was all just because it was the modern take on a performance car. But then, I'm here to discuss relative merits of different cars and certainly not intending to troll an internet forum. And of course we all have different tastes and wants in cars and bikes etc.

We're all different for sure as you say, and I had a fantastic time in my M4 earlier(helped because it was dry and in double figures though). I even think the DCT suits the engine so well too, and the car is just so playful on it's rearend, and I still love it for that, even though it's been my daily for the last 5 years as well.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't be able to have fun in an electric car though don't get me wrong, but it would definitely need to be something very special to get me out the M4 to be honest for sure.

[ashenfie]

Deep Thought said:

ITP said:

Deep Thought said:

ITP said:

nickfrog said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Total cost is too often ignored - focusing solely on charge/fuel costs
I ran some calcs on keeping my 2016 M135i vs moving to an EV under salary sacrifice.
The M135i won, by a smidge - plus EVs are cack

Did you run the figures based on buying an heavily depreciated used EV too?

Probably not, but as it was salary sacrifice it will have been based on a 40% PAYE tax break on the monthly price of the EV. Without that it would be more than a smidge.

Sal Sac also includes insurance, maintenance (including tyres), warranty and breakdown cover. Often overlooked when comparing to used car running costs. Also Sal Sac rates arent that great - noone would pay the full price pre tax break.

But then "10 year old used car cheaper to run than brand new one" doesnt really come as a surprise to anyone, surely?

A more realistic comparison would be Approved Used

2022 Model 3 Approved Used for £19,100

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202602180...

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 26th February 14:02

No, the comparison should be a 2016 Tesla to match the age of the bmw. This would be a model S for about 15k with sub 100k miles maybe. Could get one with free supercharging I suppose but would you put 15k into a 10 year old Tesla? Maybe it would be fine.

I was finding a half way house between him going "brand new" and it still being some sort of step upwards in terms of age.

Approved Used is a good idea, particularly for someone looking at EVs for the first time.

Size wise Model 3 is closest to a 1 series.

I guess instead of the question "if i were to spend £40,000 on a new Tesla, would i save anything over keeping my current car?" it becomes "if i were to spend £3,000 on changing my car, how much would i save in ongoing running costs?" That feels more like a real world scenario question.

I doubt anyone goes from a 10 year old car to a brand new £40K with an expectation they're going to save money.

Mmm, the model 3s cargo volume alone is nearly 60% bigger. Its closest the the 3 series of course.

[Deep Thought]

ashenfie said:

Firstly it's supply and demand, so while used EVs supply is higher than demand the value drops in order to sell them within a reasonable time. ICE car have a good supply of used parts, If timing chain breaks and kills my engine (520D) I can easily source a used one at reasonable cost. While if I had an i5 and the air conditioning failed and fried the battery then you be lucky to find a used one. So its more about risk than actual reliability. Tyres/Suspension are going to be more or less the same either way. Personally i don't chuck fish and chip wrappers in the back of my car.

Suspension/Tyres/Brakes take a heavy pounding and soon rack up a fair few grand in repair bills. If you check your old fish and chip wrapper in the back ICE and EV it's all the same.

Though again, you're not comparing like with like.

If you've a new i5 chances are its going to be under warranty / extended warranty therefore any bill like that is going to be covered. Battery warranty is usually 8 years.

If someone bought a new i5, it wouldnt be that hard to keep it under BMW Warranty for the duration of your 100K miles, if needs be.

Used batteries come available fairly quickly as cars get written off and end up in breakers. I did a cursory check for an i4 battery and found one. I'm sure theres dedicated breakers out there for them too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/366157362196?_skw=bmw+i...

[Deep Thought]

ashenfie said:

Mmm, the model 3s cargo volume alone is nearly 60% bigger. Its closest the the 3 series of course.

Its still the closest Tesla model in terms of size?

Dimensionally, its there or thereabouts (fractionally bigger all round) in all bar length, where is 40 cms longer.

I cant imagine any sane person trying to have a balanced view would rule a car out because it had a bigger boot.

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 26th February 16:51

[ShortBeardy]

There have been less believable justifications on here than `does this make my arse look big?'
How about,
"I couldn't put one of those on the drive as the neighbours would think I'd had my balls cut off."
?

Mornin'

[ShortBeardy]

PH forums should be amusing and informative and not the recently popular `let's trash a technology and belittle the intellect of anyone who uses it' vs. 'I use it and it works for me because...'.

For your amusement I give you the following video link in the spirit of `being informed'. If you can get past the obvious `personal statement' of the presenter and listen to the well informed narration, it has lots of interesting nuggets about the person we all love to hate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mb7rE5KbWU

Unfortunately as a practical 'not constrained to home charging' EV solution in the US I still believe the Tesla is the most well-considered and executed solution. That is a testament to Tesla not to the star of the above video.
Enjoy.

[Throttlebody]

The DM covering the issue with EVs. Buyers don’t want them. Manufacturers reacting to low demand.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-155...

[plfrench]

Throttlebody said:

The DM covering the issue with EVs. Buyers don t want them. Manufacturers reacting to low demand.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-155...

Hence the reason for the ZEV Mandate. The clue”s in the name. This really shouldn t be a surprise

[BlueJazz]

In more Daily Mail alarm, your EV is spying on you!

"Millions of EV drivers 'spied on by the government' through their mobile phones as part of 'nanny state' plan."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15600255/...

I wonder if you can get a tin-foil wrap for your car these days?

[nickfrog]

The DM.

[Deep Thought]

nickfrog said:

The DM.

+1

[MightyBadger]

Not read the article but manufacturers of EVs have been open about this from the start about data sharing/monitoring

Here's what Google says if the data...

how much ev car data is shared



+3
EV car data sharing is extensive, covering location, driving behavior (speed, braking, steering), and, as of early 2026, even mobile phone browsing habits for government research. Automakers often share this data with marketers or insurers, while a 2026 report revealed that 25 million mobile devices were monitored to track EV movements.
Green Car Guide
Green Car Guide
+3
Types of Data Shared: Connected EVs collect and transmit data including precise GPS location, battery usage, charging patterns, acceleration, braking intensity, and, in some cases, in-car audio or passenger behavior.
Government Monitoring: In the UK, a two-year study concluded in 2026 used O2 mobile network data to track 25 million devices to analyze EV adoption, including locations, trip frequencies, and overnight charging spots.
Data Monetization: Automakers frequently share or sell data with third-party partners. For example, programs like GM's OnStar Smart Driver shared detailed driving data with insurance firms, sometimes without explicit, separate consent.
Privacy Concerns: Drivers are often unaware of the extent of tracking, though 16 US states now have laws allowing users to opt out of certain data collection, often at the cost of losing features like remote diagnostics.
Usage Frequency: Data is frequently streamed in real-time, especially for mapping, entertainment, and safety feature

[Sir Keith Stormer]

Ray Massey is only miffed because he can't fit inside that, or any other car for that matter.

[uktrailmonster]

BlueJazz said:

In more Daily Mail alarm, your EV is spying on you!

"Millions of EV drivers 'spied on by the government' through their mobile phones as part of 'nanny state' plan."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15600255/...

I wonder if you can get a tin-foil wrap for your car these days?

They know their audience well. I ticked all the data sharing options in my car.

I wonder why the DM think this “spying” is an EV specific thing? As if the drivetrain has anything to do with it.