Returning to a fun daily driver 330Ci vs Audi TT 225 vs 350Z

[Alfa159Ti]

Hi guys,

I need to tap into the collective wisdom of my fellow PHers regarding a change of car. Let me give you some context first...

After a running a number of fun warm hatchees and Jap imports in my younger years, a few years ago a change of career warranted a switch to newer diesel cars for client meetings, for the sake of image and economy.

A 320D and latterly an Alfa GT JTD have now made way for an Alfa 159 Ti 1.9 JTD. The car looks fantastic and very aggresive, has excellent brembo brakes and incredible handling for and FWD car, but she is a heavy old girl and the 1.9 JTD unit just isn't fiesty enough to give me my kicks. A tuning box has helped, but it is still not setting my world on fire in the performance stakes.

Whilst both the 159 and the GT that preceded it are lovely cars to drive day to day and get lots of positive interest from friends and clients, they also fail to kindle that passion you get from living with a more focussed performance car.

The 159 is so economical I am being left over with considerably more fuel budget at the end of each month than I expected.

I have decided to take the hit and sell her on in the interest of buying an older performance car that I can really bond with, that is relatively cheap to own, but practical enough to live with every day. I figure if I buy an older car then it will also have done most of its depreciating and can just put a private plate on to disguise its age.

I do around 15k miles a year working as an independent financial adviser and my day to day driving tends to be a rush hour commute in thick city traffic, but also a fair bit of motorway and back road driving when off seeing clients around the North West. My criteria is:

- Sub £10k cost to buy (i.e. out of the main 'depreciation zone')
- Comfortable for longer journeys
- A proper drivers car
- Reasonable maintenence costs and fuel economy
- Presentable for client meetings
- Reliable

So far as the title suggests I have come up with the E46 BMW 330Ci, the Audi TT 225 and the Nissan 350Z 300.

Cars that have been discounted are Mazda RX8 231 (woeful economy, no torque), Honda S2000 (not good to live with day to day) and Boxster 3.2S (potential brand image problems, thirst and maintenence costs).

Is there anything else you guys would recommend I take a look at? Any commentary on the models I have short listed from owners past and present?

I would welcome any input people can provide!

[Ephraim]

If you are prepared to go a bit older, what about a nicely looked after Porsche 944 S2? Beautiful cars, fun to drive, no more expensive to run than your other options (assuming you avoid the dealers), and mine always generated a lot of goodwill from people.

[craig7584]

I drive an s2k as my dd and find it ok, but I quite like the fact that it requires ur concentration and skill at all times, esp in the wet.

I havent driven the others but I wud guess they do offer a bit more refinement and driver aids so you can do your morning rounds without extra strong coffee first.

The only thing I wud point out, although this isn't a deal breaker personally is that the TT will be much better in the snow than any of the RWDs so depends if u will need to keep using the car thru our apparently worsening winter months.

[Alfa159Ti]

Thanks for the swift replies.

Yeah the 330Ci appeared on my radar for just those reasons - nice to hear them confirmed by an owner!

I always saw TTs as being a touch 'mass market' - i.e. more than a marketing product than a drivers car. however, the forums show a lot of love for the cars from proper petrol heads, they are very tunable with remap easily taking them to 260bhp, whilst also probably being the most economical round town when driven off boost.

Good idea re the 944, but to be honest I would have reliability concerns going with something that of that age and whilst I admire them, they have never really got under my skin.

Craig - good call re the snow. This had crossed my mind actually.

Yes the S2000s demand for revs and snappy handling sounds like too much hard work in a daily driver. I always lusted over one for years and when I finally test drove one I thought it felt slow and when the VTEC zone arrived I just thought 'is that it?'. I guess it just couldn't live up to how much I had hyped it over the years...

[Caulkhead]

Alfa159Ti said:

My criteria is:

- Sub £10k cost to buy (i.e. out of the main 'depreciation zone')
- Comfortable for longer journeys
- A proper drivers car
- Reasonable maintenence costs and fuel economy
- Presentable for client meetings
- Reliable

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...

I have one of these as my daily driver for business and it matches your criteria perfectly. 32mpg on a run, 28mpg average, £200 servicing, Mazda reliability, subtle looks, 4WD with rear mech. LSD, 260hp and 280lb-ft and easily chippable to 300+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFmasvF-918

Specifically to get the Clarkson haters foaming at the mouth!

[300bhp/ton]

Alfa159Ti said:

Hi guys,

I need to tap into the collective wisdom of my fellow PHers regarding a change of car. Let me give you some context first...

After a running a number of fun warm hatchees and Jap imports in my younger years, a few years ago a change of career warranted a switch to newer diesel cars for client meetings, for the sake of image and economy.

A 320D and latterly an Alfa GT JTD have now made way for an Alfa 159 Ti 1.9 JTD. The car looks fantastic and very aggresive, has excellent brembo brakes and incredible handling for and FWD car, but she is a heavy old girl and the 1.9 JTD unit just isn't fiesty enough to give me my kicks. A tuning box has helped, but it is still not setting my world on fire in the performance stakes.

Whilst both the 159 and the GT that preceded it are lovely cars to drive day to day and get lots of positive interest from friends and clients, they also fail to kindle that passion you get from living with a more focussed performance car.

The 159 is so economical I am being left over with considerably more fuel budget at the end of each month than I expected.

I have decided to take the hit and sell her on in the interest of buying an older performance car that I can really bond with, that is relatively cheap to own, but practical enough to live with every day. I figure if I buy an older car then it will also have done most of its depreciating and can just put a private plate on to disguise its age.

I do around 15k miles a year working as an independent financial adviser and my day to day driving tends to be a rush hour commute in thick city traffic, but also a fair bit of motorway and back road driving when off seeing clients around the North West. My criteria is:

- Sub £10k cost to buy (i.e. out of the main 'depreciation zone')
- Comfortable for longer journeys
- A proper drivers car
- Reasonable maintenence costs and fuel economy
- Presentable for client meetings
- Reliable

So far as the title suggests I have come up with the E46 BMW 330Ci, the Audi TT 225 and the Nissan 350Z 300.

Cars that have been discounted are Mazda RX8 231 (woeful economy, no torque), Honda S2000 (not good to live with day to day) and Boxster 3.2S (potential brand image problems, thirst and maintenence costs).

Is there anything else you guys would recommend I take a look at? Any commentary on the models I have short listed from owners past and present?

I would welcome any input people can provide!

My question is - why care about image and what others think??

Seriously, do you truly think it'd affect business? Also if you are a financial advisor, buying something oddball and more fun could indeed make more financial sense in terms of depreciation and resale value - so if asked, you could justify it.

15,000 miles a year isn't a huge amount to be honest. I do almost that in a smart Roadster. I find it comfy enough and it's good on fuel but a lot of fun too.

Audi TT - not sure it's much of a drivers car.
330 - more of a drivers car. Are you talking e46's? Not sure how great it really is though and looks rather boring.
350z - nice. MPG not great.

Not 100% sure what I'd suggest though, as I suspect they'd fail your image test.....

350z would be my pick from your list though.

[Alfa159Ti]

Caulkhead - good call mate!

I spent some time looking at these years ago and had forgotten them. Definitely just made the shortlist!

When I searched I couldn't find anyone who could provide a remap though. Any pointers for research?

What are they like to drive? Are they properly quick?

[Alfa159Ti]

300bhp/ton said:

My question is - why care about image and what others think??

Seriously, do you truly think it'd affect business? Also if you are a financial advisor, buying something oddball and more fun could indeed make more financial sense in terms of depreciation and resale value - so if asked, you could justify it.

15,000 miles a year isn't a huge amount to be honest. I do almost that in a smart Roadster. I find it comfy enough and it's good on fuel but a lot of fun too.

Audi TT - not sure it's much of a drivers car.
330 - more of a drivers car. Are you talking e46's? Not sure how great it really is though and looks rather boring.
350z - nice. MPG not great.

Not 100% sure what I'd suggest though, as I suspect they'd fail your image test.....

350z would be my pick from your list though.

Regarding image, this is actually very important in my job.

Pull up in a new Mercedez people think you are earning too much. Pull up in an old Honda Accord and people think you are not successful or good at what you do. Pull up in a Porsche Boxster with the roof down and sunnys on and people may think 'who does this guy think he is'. Being on average 20 years younger than my peers makes this particularly relevant.

Naturally with established clients this is not much of an issue as they know me, but turning up to a meeting with a new client in the wrong car could put you on the backfoot.

I am not saying I agree with it, but it is unfortunately the reality. As enthusiasts we look at cars in a different way to many people and a lot of the people I deal with are mature or elderly with conervative outlooks.

If I had my choice and didn't need a car for business I would have an R34 Skyline or an S15 Silvia, but I need to try to strike some sort of compromise.

BMW is E46 BTW.

[TheInternet]

craig7584 said:

I drive an s2k as my dd and find it ok, but I quite like the fact that it requires ur concentration and skill at all times, esp in the wet.

I havent driven the others but I wud guess they do offer a bit more refinement and driver aids so you can do your morning rounds without extra strong coffee first.

I am aware of the reputation, but no mass produced car 'requires ur concentration and skill at all times' to the degree you are suggesting unless there is something seriously wrong with you or the car.

[ChiChoAndy]

Well, if it was me I'd go with either the 225, or the 350Z.

[Caulkhead]

Alfa159Ti said:

Caulkhead - good call mate!

I spent some time looking at these years ago and had forgotten them. Definitely just made the shortlist!

When I searched I couldn't find anyone who could provide a remap though. Any pointers for research?

What are they like to drive? Are they properly quick?

http://www.sanspeed.co.uk/

£499 to add 55bhp and 90lb-ft.

Add a Remus exhaust and improve the cold air coming in and 320-330bhp is easy and reliable and the cams are chain-driven so no belts to go pop.

To drive they are softer than something like an EVO or Scooby but still great fun. They have very strong mid-range and low-gearing so in-gear times are very good. Top is direct geared so it runs out of revs at bang on 149mph. Crusing ability and refinement is way ahead of the EVO/Scoob, more like a 330i. Handling is v. good but benefits from a change to 225/40/18 tyres from the standard 215/45/18. This sharpens steering and turn-in significantly. With DSC on it's mild understeer all the way. Turn it off and it's mild understeer then easy oversteer as you boot it though the rear LSD keeps it all in check unless you get silly! Oh, and it's got plenty of standard kit - leather, HIDs, electric seats, Bose stereo with 20gig HDD, cruise etc.

The downsides are they only really like V-Power or Tesco 99 and mine is a 2007 so the road tax is £445.

As a daily driver, the best bit for me is that they only sold 600 so you rarely see another and hardly anyone knows what it is, especially foot-to-the-floor A3 TDi types!

Worth a look IMHO.

[Alfa159Ti]

Caulkhead said:

http://www.sanspeed.co.uk/

£499 to add 55bhp and 90lb-ft.

Add a Remus exhaust and improve the cold air coming in and 320-330bhp is easy and reliable and the cams are chain-driven so no belts to go pop.

To drive they are softer than something like an EVO or Scooby but still great fun. They have very strong mid-range and low-gearing so in-gear times are very good. Top is direct geared so it runs out of revs at bang on 149mph. Crusing ability and refinement is way ahead of the EVO/Scoob, more like a 330i. Handling is v. good but benefits from a change to 225/40/18 tyres from the standard 215/45/18. This sharpens steering and turn-in significantly. With DSC on it's mild understeer all the way. Turn it off and it's mild understeer then easy oversteer as you boot it though the rear LSD keeps it all in check unless you get silly! Oh, and it's got plenty of standard kit - leather, HIDs, electric seats, Bose stereo with 20gig HDD, cruise etc.

The downsides are they only really like V-Power or Tesco 99 and mine is a 2007 so the road tax is £445.

As a daily driver, the best bit for me is that they only sold 600 so you rarely see another and hardly anyone knows what it is, especially foot-to-the-floor A3 TDi types!

Worth a look IMHO.

Thanks for the detailed reply Caulkhead. How has your clutch fared since having the power hiked?

Also what sort of MPG do you see if cruising on motorway at 80mph? I am guessing inner city is going to be low 20s...

Evo ran a 2.3 MPS for a while and I think their long term average consumption was near 30. not bad at all!

[Hasbeen]

I think you should play the patriotism card, & buy a MORGAN. That should impress your clients.

[craig7584]

TheInternet said:

I am aware of the reputation, but no mass produced car 'requires ur concentration and skill at all times' to the degree you are suggesting unless there is something seriously wrong with you or the car.

Maybe not if u plan on driving it like a Nissan micra, but if you buy a fun car specifically to make your daily driving fun then I'm assuming you're gonna want to throw it into some corners and drive enthusiastically. Given that style of driving, the other cars wud be much more forgiving. 

Alfa159Ti said:

Yes the S2000s demand for revs and snappy handling sounds like too much hard work in a daily driver.  I always lusted over one for years and when I finally test drove one I thought it felt slow and when the VTEC zone arrived I just thought 'is that it?'.  I guess it just couldn't live up to how much I had hyped it over the years...

Once you get used to using the gears and ignoring the fact that it sounds like you are killing it with the high revs it does make for some fun and grin worthy driving, especially with the roof down. In the wrong gear the vtec effect will feel similar to being off boost in a turbo engined car, just less torque means u won't necessarily feel quite so thrown back when it arrives!

[Caulkhead]

Alfa159Ti said:

Thanks for the detailed reply Caulkhead. How has your clutch fared since having the power hiked?

Also what sort of MPG do you see if cruising on motorway at 80mph? I am guessing inner city is going to be low 20s...

Evo ran a 2.3 MPS for a while and I think their long term average consumption was near 30. not bad at all!

I haven't chipped mine yet, but the people who have on the MPS fora haven't reported any problems - it's a pretty tough clutch as standard and a bit snappy, can take a while to get used to.

I generally cruise at 80mph these days - with the cruise control set a couple of brim to brim tests showed 32mpg. Round town 24-26 and an overall average of 28 is to be expected. Reasonable as it's no lightweight and a hell of a lot better than my colleague with a Focus ST gets for 40bhp less.

Judging by your other shortlist cars, practicality isn't high on your list but the 6 is also a roomy 5 seater saloon with a big boot. The rear seats do actually fold down once you've found the hidden catches, but it's not much use the body-shell has lots of stiffening so where the hole should be, there's a load of scaffolding!

As a subtle business tool with some punch, it's hard to beat IMHO and I'm really not sure what to replace mine with.

[300bhp/ton]

Alfa159Ti said:

Naturally with established clients this is not much of an issue as they know me, but turning up to a meeting with a new client in the wrong car could put you on the backfoot.

I'm not in the same line of work, but I really struggle to see the truth in this. Sure a car might be a talking point, but I can hardly see it being any sort of deal breaker, unless it was a brand new Ferrari or something. In fact I'd go as far to say something interesting and different would be a good talking point and something that might make you stand out from the ground and be remembered more.

Maybe a semi-classic of some kind might not be such a bad idea. A tidy one, but one that's fun.

Ignoring that and thinking fun. How about a MK1 Focus RS or a MK IV Supra TT (no body kits).

[Jw Vw]

Out of all options the 330ci for me. Ticks all the boxes in terms of kit, reliability, performance, image and class.

[Spanna]

The MK5 Golf R32's are dropping to near £10K or you could get the Audi equivalent A3 for even less.

http://pistonheads.com/sales/2775545.htm

[Basil Brush]

300bhp/ton said:

'm not in the same line of work, but I really struggle to see the truth in this.

You´d be surprised. Some friends of my parents were talking about their advisor after having some investment stuff sorted out. One of the things that affected their confidence in him was the fact that he drove a new Jag, hence must be doing ok and a sensible choice.

To the OP - Incidentally, I´ve started looking at 159 1.9/2.4 diesels as I´m going to be doing a fair bit of travel for work and I want something decent on fuel but at least a bit exciting. How has yours been to run?

Edited by Basil Brush on Sunday 8th May 13:56

[300bhp/ton]

How about a Vauxhall??


Vauxhall Monaro 5.7 V8 2dr [354] (2006)
35,094 miles £10,995
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2750074.htm