How final is the Deposit Protection Services decision?
Discussion
Being pretty new to the whole renting game, from the landlord side, how final is the Deposit Protection Services (DPS) decision?
The reason I ask is that the departed tenants have disputed all the cleaning, painting and repairs needed to bring the property back up to the standard it was before they moved in.
The DPS have awarded less than 10% of the figure requested to complete the repairs.
Is this something I just have to swallow, or can I take it further?
Thanks
Nat
The reason I ask is that the departed tenants have disputed all the cleaning, painting and repairs needed to bring the property back up to the standard it was before they moved in.
The DPS have awarded less than 10% of the figure requested to complete the repairs.
Is this something I just have to swallow, or can I take it further?
Thanks
Nat
Don't know if it helps but I'm just about to put a dispute in because the Agent is trying to charge me for maintenance and cleaning issues which were already marked on the inventory when I moved in.
I believe it says on the dispute form that, by signing it, all parties agree that the decision of the independant adjudicator is final.
I believe it says on the dispute form that, by signing it, all parties agree that the decision of the independant adjudicator is final.
To the OP; sorry I can't help directly as I'm not particularly well involved with the lettings side of the business and I'm not ARLA qualified. However, I do read the trade papers and keep my ears open. I'd take a look on the DPS website and give them a call if I were you. My gut feeling is their decision has been made and I can't see reference on the site to "Appeals". I do see reference to "Complaints", however. If you used an Agent I'd speak to them too. Also google for help on property websites.
Generally mouthing off; INVEST IN A GOOD INVENTORY PROVIDER. It costs a bit up front but insist on one that provides lots of pictures. Accept this upfront cost as part of your ongoing necessary costs. It is insurance. Accept maintenance of a property as a cost in business models. This ranges from accepting kitchens will last a decade at a push, as will bathrooms, doors will get marked, carpets worn, gardens deteriorate. Cleaning the property at the end of a rental term within our management portfolio is (usually) professionally provided and the responsibility of the landlord.
As was said above, historically the deposit was simply and systematically hoovered up by far too many landlords as a matter of course. This lead to the current legislation. It is intended to be fair and impartial and from my experience (limited admittedly) it is much less open to abuse than previous systems. There are many many shall I say "forthright" landlords out there who have issue with the scheme and believe a much greater burden of cost should be placed on their tenants within their business models. Several of these sorts of landlords post in these sorts of threads so you may expect direction from one of these more experienced chaps at some point.
I doubt I've helped very much.
Generally mouthing off; INVEST IN A GOOD INVENTORY PROVIDER. It costs a bit up front but insist on one that provides lots of pictures. Accept this upfront cost as part of your ongoing necessary costs. It is insurance. Accept maintenance of a property as a cost in business models. This ranges from accepting kitchens will last a decade at a push, as will bathrooms, doors will get marked, carpets worn, gardens deteriorate. Cleaning the property at the end of a rental term within our management portfolio is (usually) professionally provided and the responsibility of the landlord.
As was said above, historically the deposit was simply and systematically hoovered up by far too many landlords as a matter of course. This lead to the current legislation. It is intended to be fair and impartial and from my experience (limited admittedly) it is much less open to abuse than previous systems. There are many many shall I say "forthright" landlords out there who have issue with the scheme and believe a much greater burden of cost should be placed on their tenants within their business models. Several of these sorts of landlords post in these sorts of threads so you may expect direction from one of these more experienced chaps at some point.
I doubt I've helped very much.
DPS decision is final, I've had experience with them and as we have both found, they come down on the side of tenants. My advice now and in future is go straight to small claims court and don't bother with DPS. You cannot even get to speak to the judge of the decision only a call centre, but i'm sure you've encountered that.
Thanks for all the replies chaps.
A bit more information;
The property was fully managed by a local "lettings specialist" who found the tenants, did the check in / checkout, and advised me throughout the tenancy, and with hindsight, somewhat incorrectly, all for a fee of £100 pcm.
When the tenants checked out,
The walls in 3 bedrooms were thick with black mould, only on the last day had they attempted to clean the mould off with a scouring pad, requiring all the rooms to be re-painted.
The carpet had not been hoovered once in 12 months, and any spills had just been left, and not cleaned up.
They had also caused significant damage to an oak floor.
The above damage, to me seem far to excessive for 12 months wear and tear, so I claimed for;
Painting of 3 rooms - materials only, as I did the painting
Professional carpet clean in an attempt to salvage the carpet.
Professional sand and re-finish the oak floor.
Totally just over £700.
Pics of the damage - every carpet was generally the same mess.
- over 20 areas on the oak floor with damage similar to the picture below.
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/YOXtnFAH.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/Xmstf3v8" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/Xmstf3v8.jpg)
The agent also raised the dispute to the DPS, as it was a "done deal", and due to the "data protection", the DPS would not discuss the case with me.
Being new, and in hindsight, naive, I took the agent at their word, and no thing they did not represent me in the best possible way to the DPS.
The DPS awarded me;
From the £600 claim for the floor - £60
From the £140 for the carpet cleaning - £35
From the £40 for the paint - £0.
Sorry for the long post
A bit more information;
The property was fully managed by a local "lettings specialist" who found the tenants, did the check in / checkout, and advised me throughout the tenancy, and with hindsight, somewhat incorrectly, all for a fee of £100 pcm.
When the tenants checked out,
The walls in 3 bedrooms were thick with black mould, only on the last day had they attempted to clean the mould off with a scouring pad, requiring all the rooms to be re-painted.
The carpet had not been hoovered once in 12 months, and any spills had just been left, and not cleaned up.
They had also caused significant damage to an oak floor.
The above damage, to me seem far to excessive for 12 months wear and tear, so I claimed for;
Painting of 3 rooms - materials only, as I did the painting
Professional carpet clean in an attempt to salvage the carpet.
Professional sand and re-finish the oak floor.
Totally just over £700.
Pics of the damage - every carpet was generally the same mess.
- over 20 areas on the oak floor with damage similar to the picture below.
The agent also raised the dispute to the DPS, as it was a "done deal", and due to the "data protection", the DPS would not discuss the case with me.
Being new, and in hindsight, naive, I took the agent at their word, and no thing they did not represent me in the best possible way to the DPS.
The DPS awarded me;
From the £600 claim for the floor - £60
From the £140 for the carpet cleaning - £35
From the £40 for the paint - £0.
Sorry for the long post
I don't think it's the tenant's fault that your property has a mould problem is it ?
Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
Henry-F said:
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light
Perhaps he feels they should have had more heating on? Though whether that was practical or not would depend on the heating and insulation provided.Henry-F said:
I don't think it's the tenant's fault that your property has a mould problem is it ?
Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
The property was rented empty, so all the furniture was the tenants. It’s the belief of the agent and myself that the damage to the floor was caused by an exercise bike, which was used on the floor with no rubber feet, so the movement of the bike during exercise caused the closely grouped damage, and the longer marks are caused when the bike was returned to its storage place.Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
As for the carpets, whilst I understand wear is expected, living like a pig and not clearing up spillages (food, wine, blood!) should not occur.
The property has been empty for 3 months now, and since it was painted 3 months ago, there is no sign of any mould or damp. I totally believe the mould was due to the "style of living" by the tenants, drying clothes inside, showers etc, without the correct ventilation.
If any attempt had been made to clean the mould on a regular basis, the paintwork would still be in an acceptable standard. Leaving it for 12 months, and then attacking with scouring pads is never going to end well.
Nat_H said:
Henry-F said:
I don't think it's the tenant's fault that your property has a mould problem is it ?
Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
The property was rented empty, so all the furniture was the tenants. It’s the belief of the agent and myself that the damage to the floor was caused by an exercise bike, which was used on the floor with no rubber feet, so the movement of the bike during exercise caused the closely grouped damage, and the longer marks are caused when the bike was returned to its storage place.Was the floor damage caused by furniture provided by you ?
Carpet cleaning may well be owed, I suspect they judged it was a shared cost as you should expect some deterioration of the carpets.
I don't think that's a bad outcome. For me the fact you were claiming for the mould damage painted you in a less than favourable light.
Henry
As for the carpets, whilst I understand wear is expected, living like a pig and not clearing up spillages (food, wine, blood!) should not occur.
The property has been empty for 3 months now, and since it was painted 3 months ago, there is no sign of any mould or damp. I totally believe the mould was due to the "style of living" by the tenants, drying clothes inside, showers etc, without the correct ventilation.
If any attempt had been made to clean the mould on a regular basis, the paintwork would still be in an acceptable standard. Leaving it for 12 months, and then attacking with scouring pads is never going to end well.
I suppose the the quality of the check in and check out report was not done well enough and hence the decision .
Rower
We've just had a similar situation.
In our opinion we were entirely reasonable about splitting required repairs from wear and tear, going as far as asking the decorating contractor to revise/reduce his invoice to split out wear and tear from damage.
DPS have classified everything as fair wear and tear and given the guarantor virtually all their deposit back. Throughout the decision document they cite lack of proof of damage. We think that the problem lies with the submission. The agent was aware that we had photographs and other documentation to submit but progressed the case without consulting with us or even showing us a copy of the form they submitted. The quality of the check-out inventory was appalling
Ironically the token £15 was awarded for something we didn't wish to claim for, minor repaired damage to a door that was present when the tenant moved in.
In our opinion we were entirely reasonable about splitting required repairs from wear and tear, going as far as asking the decorating contractor to revise/reduce his invoice to split out wear and tear from damage.
DPS have classified everything as fair wear and tear and given the guarantor virtually all their deposit back. Throughout the decision document they cite lack of proof of damage. We think that the problem lies with the submission. The agent was aware that we had photographs and other documentation to submit but progressed the case without consulting with us or even showing us a copy of the form they submitted. The quality of the check-out inventory was appalling
Ironically the token £15 was awarded for something we didn't wish to claim for, minor repaired damage to a door that was present when the tenant moved in.
Thunderace on another thread said:
We had a tenant in our flat for 6 months until mid January, we didn't extend the contract as she lied about being a smoker in a flat clearly marketed as non-smoker only.
The flat was completely renovated prior to her moving in with new carpets and paintwork throughout.
We weren't happy with the state of the place when she moved out, hall and lounge carpets had to be deep-cleaned and there was damage to walls in several areas including lumps of masonary knocked out, damage from a baby bouncer fitted to a door frame and heavy scuffing from bicycle or pram wheels (we didn't consider this fair wear and tear).
The tenant originally agreed the carpet cleaning bill but then her guarantor got involved and disputed everything. We asked the agent to go to DPS arbitration in January. It then went completely quiet until 2 weeks ago when I chased by E-mail to see what progress there had been. I got no response until today when I received an E-mail from the agent telling me we had been awarded £15.
We are surprised that the decision has already been made as we have not been asked at any point to contribute material for the arbitration process (we have photos and witness statements from contrators, etc.).
Does it sound reasonable that the agent would progress the claim without asking us to contribute or even review the submission? We have not seen the submission or the formal decision yet (we're told it is in the post).
We understand that it is unlikely that this case can be reviewed, depending on what is contained in the decision do we have grounds for a complaint against the agent?
The flat was completely renovated prior to her moving in with new carpets and paintwork throughout.
We weren't happy with the state of the place when she moved out, hall and lounge carpets had to be deep-cleaned and there was damage to walls in several areas including lumps of masonary knocked out, damage from a baby bouncer fitted to a door frame and heavy scuffing from bicycle or pram wheels (we didn't consider this fair wear and tear).
The tenant originally agreed the carpet cleaning bill but then her guarantor got involved and disputed everything. We asked the agent to go to DPS arbitration in January. It then went completely quiet until 2 weeks ago when I chased by E-mail to see what progress there had been. I got no response until today when I received an E-mail from the agent telling me we had been awarded £15.
We are surprised that the decision has already been made as we have not been asked at any point to contribute material for the arbitration process (we have photos and witness statements from contrators, etc.).
Does it sound reasonable that the agent would progress the claim without asking us to contribute or even review the submission? We have not seen the submission or the formal decision yet (we're told it is in the post).
We understand that it is unlikely that this case can be reviewed, depending on what is contained in the decision do we have grounds for a complaint against the agent?
I would be interested to know how it worked out overall- length of time they were there for, amount of rent paid, agent's fees, cost of getting the property ready for the next tenants, against the cost of the property itself, has it worked out to be a good investment despite the unexpected repair costs?
singlecoil said:
I would be interested to know how it worked out overall- length of time they were there for, amount of rent paid, agent's fees, cost of getting the property ready for the next tenants, against the cost of the property itself, has it worked out to be a good investment despite the unexpected repair costs?
Basic overview.12 month agreement
Rent £800 pcm - £85 agent fees (fully managed hmmm!) = £715
£715 - £534 mortgage payment = £181 surplus each month.
Total surplus after 12 months = £2172
Repairs and bills
£1100 building maintaince cost & fees
£400 extraordinary building maintaince
£140 carpet cleaning
£100 paint / cleaning / repair
£60 new fridge
£500 repair wooden floor
£200 general time (wasted) travel to fix/answer questions
Total expenditure circa £2500
Overall loss of £328 a year.
Not something I am keen to do again.
Except what perhaps you have to consider is that a lot of landlords will appear to break even or even make a slight loss if you include the cost of mortgage repayments. You have to consider that in the end you may have only broken even over x number of years of rental; your profit is in the value of the property which you're left with in the end......
JWH said:
Except what perhaps you have to consider is that a lot of landlords will appear to break even or even make a slight loss if you include the cost of mortgage repayments. You have to consider that in the end you may have only broken even over x number of years of rental; your profit is in the value of the property which you're left with in the end......
Very true, equity increasing all the time.Isn't it funny how different people see things in different ways. From where I'm sitting
Outgoings for empty property:
Mortgage payments of 12 x 534 = £6,408
Maintenance, say £500?
Council Tax £1,500 ?
So you are over £8,000 better off than if the property had sat empty compared to your £128 loss (I'm not letting you have the £200 for your time
).
Hopefully the property is easier to sell than it was a year ago and might have increased a little in value as a result.
Either way the people have paid you £9,600 and possibly covered the council tax for you.
I don't think you can ever expect to make a fortune on a mortgaged property but as been said already possibly the property goes up in value long terms. Rental property is pension income not monthly income.
Good luck for the future and possibly lessons learned ?
Henry
Outgoings for empty property:
Mortgage payments of 12 x 534 = £6,408
Maintenance, say £500?
Council Tax £1,500 ?
So you are over £8,000 better off than if the property had sat empty compared to your £128 loss (I'm not letting you have the £200 for your time
).Hopefully the property is easier to sell than it was a year ago and might have increased a little in value as a result.
Either way the people have paid you £9,600 and possibly covered the council tax for you.
I don't think you can ever expect to make a fortune on a mortgaged property but as been said already possibly the property goes up in value long terms. Rental property is pension income not monthly income.
Good luck for the future and possibly lessons learned ?
Henry
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