Garden Wall / Neighbour Drama
Discussion
Chaps, I wonder if I could get your thoughts please?
Before erecting a garden wall as part of my new patio area recently I referred to my local council website to find the maximum permitted height of garden walls and also called the building control department to confirm. I was told the wall could be no more than 2m if it is not adjoining a highway or a listed building. Any higher would require planning permission.
The original fence marking the boundary between mine and my neighbour’s property is owned by my neighbour and travels the length of the 2 gardens built on his side of the boundary and remains intact.
I built my wall 1.85m high and 5m long on my side of the boundary. It protrudes 20cm above the level of my neighbours 6ft fence as our street is on a hill and my neighbour's garden is on the downhill side .
My neighbour has complained to me about the height of my newly built wall saying that it should be 2m from the ground level in his garden, not the ground on which the wall is built.
For background, this wall stands where a 2.4m garage stood until a month ago, so the wall is significantly lower than the structure which it replaces and is less than the permitted 2m in height from the ground on which it stands.
Who's right, him or me? The council has so far only given an informal opinion to an email sent to them by my neighbour based on his version, which I imagine doesn't state the full facts but a version to suit his point of view. They haven't yet responded to my enquiry stating all measurements and facts.
It appears to me that my neighbour is being petty. I have offered to paint the 20cm section of wall that protrudes above his fence any colour he wishes or fix some trellis so that he can grow anything up it. (he likes growing things) He says he doesn't want either of those and wants the height reduced.
It also appears to me that he thinks it's OK for him to have had a double storey extension to the side and rear of his house, yet he has objections to me building a wall below regulation height on my own land.
Your thoughts please?
Before erecting a garden wall as part of my new patio area recently I referred to my local council website to find the maximum permitted height of garden walls and also called the building control department to confirm. I was told the wall could be no more than 2m if it is not adjoining a highway or a listed building. Any higher would require planning permission.
The original fence marking the boundary between mine and my neighbour’s property is owned by my neighbour and travels the length of the 2 gardens built on his side of the boundary and remains intact.
I built my wall 1.85m high and 5m long on my side of the boundary. It protrudes 20cm above the level of my neighbours 6ft fence as our street is on a hill and my neighbour's garden is on the downhill side .
My neighbour has complained to me about the height of my newly built wall saying that it should be 2m from the ground level in his garden, not the ground on which the wall is built.
For background, this wall stands where a 2.4m garage stood until a month ago, so the wall is significantly lower than the structure which it replaces and is less than the permitted 2m in height from the ground on which it stands.
Who's right, him or me? The council has so far only given an informal opinion to an email sent to them by my neighbour based on his version, which I imagine doesn't state the full facts but a version to suit his point of view. They haven't yet responded to my enquiry stating all measurements and facts.
It appears to me that my neighbour is being petty. I have offered to paint the 20cm section of wall that protrudes above his fence any colour he wishes or fix some trellis so that he can grow anything up it. (he likes growing things) He says he doesn't want either of those and wants the height reduced.
It also appears to me that he thinks it's OK for him to have had a double storey extension to the side and rear of his house, yet he has objections to me building a wall below regulation height on my own land.
Your thoughts please?
Edited by allgonepetetong on Thursday 12th May 13:04
For once (I thought!) the answer is quite simple, it is up to 2m not adjacent a highway, measured from the unaltered level of the ground on which it stands i.e. if you have not raised your soil level, the fact that the land drops away the other side is irrelevant.
Edited by Mr GrimNasty on Thursday 12th May 12:56
It's funny isn't it, you see something in writing from officials numerous times, hear it repeated first hand by professionals, now I've just seen the opposite - a council stating in its latest literature that where the land levels are significantly different, you should measure from the lower level.
Well then the only answer is to wait and see what YOUR council says!
Well then the only answer is to wait and see what YOUR council says!
allgonepetetong said:
That's interesting. Which council was it please and I wonder how they quantify 'significant'?
FWIW, the height diff between my garden and my deighbours is approx 30cm which I would not call significant, but then I'm sure my neighbour would disagree.
Are you sure that the difference in land levels on either side of the wall is 30cm - that's one hell of a slope! Could be worth re-checking what the unaltered land height difference is between both side of the wall at its base.FWIW, the height diff between my garden and my deighbours is approx 30cm which I would not call significant, but then I'm sure my neighbour would disagree.
If you're at 1.85m on your side then you have 150mm to play with. If you take a standard brick length of 215mm to allow for pillars(if you have any) then a 150mm drop still equates to an angle of 35degrees for the slope of the land. Anything less and you will be under 2.00m on his side.
allgonepetetong said:
That's interesting. Which council was it please and I wonder how they quantify 'significant'?
FWIW, the height diff between my garden and my deighbours is approx 30cm which I would not call significant, but then I'm sure my neighbour would disagree.
Kimg's Lynn & West Norfolk : http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/pdf/leaflet%209.pdfFWIW, the height diff between my garden and my deighbours is approx 30cm which I would not call significant, but then I'm sure my neighbour would disagree.
which is contradicted by (the first I could find) Barnsley: http://www.barnsley.gov.uk/18wallspdf
No consistency it seems.
Under permitted development rules height is given as
Download and have a look at The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995. There's not much info there (very quick to scan), and a quick read doesn't seem to cover walling (though covers a lot of other stuff. I can send you a pdf of the permitted development - technical guidance document which gives far more information than the order itself (which is gash and so full of holes it's crazy). Not sure if it covers garden walls. Should do.
2010-08-CLG-Permitted-development-for-householders-Aug-2010.pdf said:
‘Height’ - references to height (for example, the heights of the eaves on a house extension) is the height measured from ground level.3 Ground level is the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to the building in question. Where ground level is not uniform (e.g. if the ground is sloping), then the ground level is the highest part of the surface of the ground next to the building.
This would appear you're okay.Download and have a look at The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995. There's not much info there (very quick to scan), and a quick read doesn't seem to cover walling (though covers a lot of other stuff. I can send you a pdf of the permitted development - technical guidance document which gives far more information than the order itself (which is gash and so full of holes it's crazy). Not sure if it covers garden walls. Should do.
Mr GrimNasty said:
It's funny isn't it, you see something in writing from officials numerous times, hear it repeated first hand by professionals, now I've just seen the opposite - a council stating in its latest literature that where the land levels are significantly different, you should measure from the lower level.
Well then the only answer is to wait and see what YOUR council says!
Just had the same issue with birmingham council. My garage is designed to be under 2.5m (permitted dev rules) at the high end of my sloping plot, but this means the height is over 2.5m where the ground falls away. Council rejected the plans saying it was over 2.5m. Succesfully managed to show them the legislation (above) and the backed down! Useless...Well then the only answer is to wait and see what YOUR council says!
VxDuncan said:
Just had the same issue with birmingham council. My garage is designed to be under 2.5m (permitted dev rules) at the high end of my sloping plot, but this means the height is over 2.5m where the ground falls away. Council rejected the plans saying it was over 2.5m. Succesfully managed to show them the legislation (above) and the backed down! Useless...
Hi Duncan, thanks for this. Could you possibly email me the pdf of legislation you mention please?For anyone else interested, I measured the height of the wall from my neighbour's side yesterday and it is 2.2m Hence we can deduce the height diff due to the terracing is 40cm.
He's kicking up from a very uncertain position about 20cm, some people!
I might add another 15cm to the height of the wall now
allgonepetetong said:
VxDuncan said:
Just had the same issue with birmingham council. My garage is designed to be under 2.5m (permitted dev rules) at the high end of my sloping plot, but this means the height is over 2.5m where the ground falls away. Council rejected the plans saying it was over 2.5m. Succesfully managed to show them the legislation (above) and the backed down! Useless...
Hi Duncan, thanks for this. Could you possibly email me the pdf of legislation you mention please?For anyone else interested, I measured the height of the wall from my neighbour's side yesterday and it is 2.2m Hence we can deduce the height diff due to the terracing is 40cm.
He's kicking up from a very uncertain position about 20cm, some people!
I might add another 15cm to the height of the wall now
2.0M is the max. height of any fence/wall.
I very much doubt you'll find the level of detail you want in any legislation, see Part 2:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/418/schedu...
If anything it'll just refer to the ground level, just like it refers to adjacent the highway for the 1m limit. Such vague terms as 'adjacent' have never been defined or tested in court according to the legal advisors to the planning department at my council.
There may be some additional (technical) guidelines issued by government somewhere, but they'll probably be equally open to interpretation.
This is why councils just effectively make it up as they go along when it comes to enforcing such things.
I cannot believe a council will take enforcement action over a wall that is only marginally over height and then only if you measure from down a natural slope!
Edited by Mr GrimNasty on Friday 13th May 10:12
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