non running Griff
Discussion
First a little bit of history, just over 5 yrs ago I took my '95 Giff 500 off the road following the birth of my daughter, I'd decided that I wouldn't be getting much use out of it that summer so choice was either to sell it or lay it up for a year, that year became 5 !!!, prior to it's period of inactivity I changed the oil, removed the battery, set it on axle stands, covered it in sheets and a dust cover and that's pretty much the way she as stayed for the past few years, occasionally I'd start her up largely just to hear the growl but for the most part she's been inactive.
Anyway I started the re-commissioning process just after Xmas, what should have been a simple wash and brush up as turned in to a complete interior overall hence the time it's taken I'd aimed on taxing it Apr 1st but it's taking a little longer than I'd hoped. I've now replaced the carpets, rear hood section, and sorted the cracked dash out, I've just to refit the leather (seats, door cards, centre console etc) and she'll be ready to go.
That brings me to my problem, basically it won't run, it will start with the aid of 'easy start' / petrol fired into the inlet but it won't run, it dies straight away.
The problem appears to be in the fuel system as the engines will start the ignition appears fine, firstly the fuel pump isn't running, normally I can hear the fuel pump 'whirring' but it is silent, the pump isn't faulty as it runs if it sees 12v, I've even tried cranking the engine while running the fuel pump from a 12v feed and the engine still won't run, this leads me to believe the injectors aren't firing either, which suggests the problem is connected to both of these not operating, what controls both of these? would (for example ) a failed fuel pump relay cause the injectors not to fire even if the pump was powered externally??
The alarm (Clifford) seems to be working fine, arming and disarming as it should, although I believe the alarm interrupts more than 1 system as part of it’s immobilisation function so I’m not discounting the possibility it is restoring power to the ignition and not to the fuel system, but before I start looking into the alarm system what else is likely to cause these symptoms ??
I know it’s very difficult diagnosing faults ‘ at a distance’ so to speak but if I can get some pointers , suggestions, advice it may help me track down what is in all probability a minor issue with a very simple solution. Any help or advice would be most appreciated and hopefully I can look at getting the beast up and running and aim to tax it 1st june only 2 months behind schedule.
Anyway I started the re-commissioning process just after Xmas, what should have been a simple wash and brush up as turned in to a complete interior overall hence the time it's taken I'd aimed on taxing it Apr 1st but it's taking a little longer than I'd hoped. I've now replaced the carpets, rear hood section, and sorted the cracked dash out, I've just to refit the leather (seats, door cards, centre console etc) and she'll be ready to go.
That brings me to my problem, basically it won't run, it will start with the aid of 'easy start' / petrol fired into the inlet but it won't run, it dies straight away.
The problem appears to be in the fuel system as the engines will start the ignition appears fine, firstly the fuel pump isn't running, normally I can hear the fuel pump 'whirring' but it is silent, the pump isn't faulty as it runs if it sees 12v, I've even tried cranking the engine while running the fuel pump from a 12v feed and the engine still won't run, this leads me to believe the injectors aren't firing either, which suggests the problem is connected to both of these not operating, what controls both of these? would (for example ) a failed fuel pump relay cause the injectors not to fire even if the pump was powered externally??
The alarm (Clifford) seems to be working fine, arming and disarming as it should, although I believe the alarm interrupts more than 1 system as part of it’s immobilisation function so I’m not discounting the possibility it is restoring power to the ignition and not to the fuel system, but before I start looking into the alarm system what else is likely to cause these symptoms ??
I know it’s very difficult diagnosing faults ‘ at a distance’ so to speak but if I can get some pointers , suggestions, advice it may help me track down what is in all probability a minor issue with a very simple solution. Any help or advice would be most appreciated and hopefully I can look at getting the beast up and running and aim to tax it 1st june only 2 months behind schedule.
The 2 relays with metal housing are the fuel pump and somet else I can't recall. Worth swapping them and at least if they are OK you've got some spares. I'd check all the fuses also to ensure they are all OK. 2 relays should be about £30.
Have you drained the fuel as it may be off? Or as a minmimum topped off with fresh fuel. Probably worth looking at fuel filters also and the fuel pipe at the back of the engine as this is likely to have persihed. - start with cheap stuff that probably needs replacing anyway.
I'm not technical but its probably something cheap and straighforward to change.
FFG
Have you drained the fuel as it may be off? Or as a minmimum topped off with fresh fuel. Probably worth looking at fuel filters also and the fuel pipe at the back of the engine as this is likely to have persihed. - start with cheap stuff that probably needs replacing anyway.
I'm not technical but its probably something cheap and straighforward to change.
FFG
If you've run a seperate 12v to the fuel pump and you still have a problem then I would look to check that you've got fuel coming to the fuel rail and returning. As FFG mentions if the fuel is 5 years old you could probably do with getting some fresh in there. The fuel filter may be blocked.
The fuel pump only runs when you turn on the ignition for a short period to prime the system and then stops until the engine is running. The ECU controls the fuel pump but not sure what it uses to know the engine is running. As you've run a seperate feed to the fuel pump then this bypasses all this control so I don't think that this is the root of your problem.
Not related to the problem but it would probably be a good idea to check the flexible fuel pipes in the engine bay to make sure they haven't perished. It's fairly common for these pipes to crack with the environment they are exposed to and having been sat for 5 years. The last thing you want tos to get it running again to only for it to catch fire because of leaking fuel pipes.
The fuel pump only runs when you turn on the ignition for a short period to prime the system and then stops until the engine is running. The ECU controls the fuel pump but not sure what it uses to know the engine is running. As you've run a seperate feed to the fuel pump then this bypasses all this control so I don't think that this is the root of your problem.
Not related to the problem but it would probably be a good idea to check the flexible fuel pipes in the engine bay to make sure they haven't perished. It's fairly common for these pipes to crack with the environment they are exposed to and having been sat for 5 years. The last thing you want tos to get it running again to only for it to catch fire because of leaking fuel pipes.
thanks for the replies, and yes l'll be checking the 'cheapest' options first,
l did add fresh petrol but l guess if it's not running then the old stuff that is inevitably sitting in the pipes/rail/ injectors won't be purged but l don't think it's dodgy fuel, the pump should prime when the ignition is turned on, it's not doing that and l don't think pipes or filters would effect this, it should still prime the system regardless, although replacing the pipes and filter are a good idea given the time it's been inactive.
I’m thinking it’s more likely to be an electrical issue, something stopping the pump priming and running and also stopping the injectors firing, I will however check for fuel pressure / flow through the rail, then I guess I’ll be checking fuses and relays.
l did add fresh petrol but l guess if it's not running then the old stuff that is inevitably sitting in the pipes/rail/ injectors won't be purged but l don't think it's dodgy fuel, the pump should prime when the ignition is turned on, it's not doing that and l don't think pipes or filters would effect this, it should still prime the system regardless, although replacing the pipes and filter are a good idea given the time it's been inactive.
I’m thinking it’s more likely to be an electrical issue, something stopping the pump priming and running and also stopping the injectors firing, I will however check for fuel pressure / flow through the rail, then I guess I’ll be checking fuses and relays.
If the pump does prime by running a seperate supply then there are a few items to check;
1. Assuming you will have already checked the connector onto the pump when you have run a direct supply then check fuse number 13,denoted as spare in the handbook
,as this is for the fuel supply circuit....well it is on my Griff.
2.As mentioned try swapping the two relays over on the ECU loom
3.Tilt the n/s seat forward & there is an access cover,carpeted fibreglass panel,just below the seatbelt top mount. In the recess are the various wiring looms for the rear lights,speakers & fuel pump.Check the colour of the positive wire as it leaves the pump,mine was yellow,and check for that colour on one of the connectors in the recess,pull apart & clean. The wire colour on mine changed colour three times from the pump to the fuseboard(TVR,Vauxhall & Ford I believe).
Of course if the pump doesn't respond to a direct feed it may be seized,try a sharp
with a wooden/rubber mallet....you never know it may start working again.
Good luck
Bodders
1. Assuming you will have already checked the connector onto the pump when you have run a direct supply then check fuse number 13,denoted as spare in the handbook
,as this is for the fuel supply circuit....well it is on my Griff.2.As mentioned try swapping the two relays over on the ECU loom
3.Tilt the n/s seat forward & there is an access cover,carpeted fibreglass panel,just below the seatbelt top mount. In the recess are the various wiring looms for the rear lights,speakers & fuel pump.Check the colour of the positive wire as it leaves the pump,mine was yellow,and check for that colour on one of the connectors in the recess,pull apart & clean. The wire colour on mine changed colour three times from the pump to the fuseboard(TVR,Vauxhall & Ford I believe).
Of course if the pump doesn't respond to a direct feed it may be seized,try a sharp
with a wooden/rubber mallet....you never know it may start working again.Good luck
Bodders
Bodmin said:
If the pump does prime by running a seperate supply then there are a few items to check;
1. Assuming you will have already checked the connector onto the pump when you have run a direct supply then check fuse number 13,denoted as spare in the handbook,as this is for the fuel supply circuit....well it is on my Griff.
2.As mentioned try swapping the two relays over on the ECU loom
3.Tilt the n/s seat forward & there is an access cover,carpeted fibreglass panel,just below the seatbelt top mount. In the recess are the various wiring looms for the rear lights,speakers & fuel pump.Check the colour of the positive wire as it leaves the pump,mine was yellow,and check for that colour on one of the connectors in the recess,pull apart & clean. The wire colour on mine changed colour three times from the pump to the fuseboard(TVR,Vauxhall & Ford I believe).
Of course if the pump doesn't respond to a direct feed it may be seized,try a sharp with a wooden/rubber mallet....you never know it may start working again.
Good luck
Bodders
thanks for that post, I think you may be on to something here, bearing in mind i've replaced the carpets it's very possible I've disturbed the wiring in the area behind the N/S seat in fact one thing I did notice and now I think about it could be connected to the fuel pump issue is that the remote boot release isn’t been triggered either from the dash switch or the alarm key fob, I’d guess the wiring for this passes through the same area as the pump wiring it may even be on the same multi plug (I certainly hope so), it will be the first thing I’ll check tomorrow.1. Assuming you will have already checked the connector onto the pump when you have run a direct supply then check fuse number 13,denoted as spare in the handbook
,as this is for the fuel supply circuit....well it is on my Griff.2.As mentioned try swapping the two relays over on the ECU loom
3.Tilt the n/s seat forward & there is an access cover,carpeted fibreglass panel,just below the seatbelt top mount. In the recess are the various wiring looms for the rear lights,speakers & fuel pump.Check the colour of the positive wire as it leaves the pump,mine was yellow,and check for that colour on one of the connectors in the recess,pull apart & clean. The wire colour on mine changed colour three times from the pump to the fuseboard(TVR,Vauxhall & Ford I believe).
Of course if the pump doesn't respond to a direct feed it may be seized,try a sharp
with a wooden/rubber mallet....you never know it may start working again.Good luck
Bodders
Re the pump it’s self,the first thing I did was give it a ‘love tap’ with the dead blow hammer before I wired it up direct and it is definitely working when feed with 12v, so if was seized it isn't now, and IIRC the pos feed is yellow with a black trace although the black trace could just be dirt!!!
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