which Caterham?

[xcentric]

Considering a second-hand Caterham for the summer, and will probably keep for a couple of years, maybe more.

To be used as fun car only, on nice days for the drag into work, and so on.

The question is, which one? Cheapest? Any spec to avoid? any difference in depreciation? Ideally, cheaper is good, but main concern is driving fun and the most limited downside on depreciation.

Advice welcomed.....

[BoRED S2upid]

One with Twin Webber Carbs

If price is a factor why a Caterham? you will get a better Westfield for less money and if its only for a weekend blast does the badge matter?

[300bhp/ton]

xcentric said:

Considering a second-hand Caterham for the summer, and will probably keep for a couple of years, maybe more.

To be used as fun car only, on nice days for the drag into work, and so on.

The question is, which one? Cheapest? Any spec to avoid? any difference in depreciation? Ideally, cheaper is good, but main concern is driving fun and the most limited downside on depreciation.

Advice welcomed.....

They should all be fun.

I'd say best condition for your budget is most important. And depending on your budget also consider looking at Westfields, Dax's and other 7 Type cars.

There is different rear suspension IRS and Di-deon. And different motors. Generally the newer generation engines will be faster and lighter.

[xcentric]

BoRED S2upid said:

One with Twin Webber Carbs

If price is a factor why a Caterham? you will get a better Westfield for less money and if its only for a weekend blast does the badge matter?

my perception is that Caterhams sell on better and retain value better - though I agree they are more to begin with. But I may be wrong?

[xcentric]

300bhp/ton said:

They should all be fun.

I'd say best condition for your budget is most important. And depending on your budget also consider looking at Westfields, Dax's and other 7 Type cars.

There is different rear suspension IRS and Di-deon. And different motors. Generally the newer generation engines will be faster and lighter.

Yep - the q is which is worth paying more for, given my needs! is IRS that much better than De-Dion, for e.g., if the car is usd only occasionally (though will be driven hard).

[300bhp/ton]

xcentric said:

Yep - the q is which is worth paying more for, given my needs! is IRS that much better than De-Dion, for e.g., if the car is usd only occasionally (though will be driven hard).

Just checking, but do you know the difference between di-deon and IRS?

IMO the de-dion will give a more classic feel and likely have a more lively back end. It will also be more prone to skip and bounce on bumpy roads. But it should still be good and very capable.

IRS ultimately is the better setup in terms of individual wheel control and bumpy roads. But I'm sure there are those that prefer the feel of di-deon.

[rhinochopig]

Why Caterham if you're on a budget. You'll get much much more car for your money with one of the other 7 clones and quite a few handle better than the Caterham too.

[grimfandango]

xcentric said:

my perception is that Caterhams sell on better and retain value better - though I agree they are more to begin with. But I may be wrong?

I wouldnt say that any of the 7 type kitcars hold their value any better or worse than each other( although some are obviously worth more than each other!), condition makes a lot more difference in my opinion. Not took all that much notice of Caterhams as theyre out of my price range, but the other seven replicas seem to have been gaining value for the last few years. (since I sold mine and now I cant afford one!)

[icepop]

Having owned a 1700 SS car for 9 years, (up to the Elise arriving), and for short term ownership and re-sale, I'd say go for the K series 1.6 or 1.8,(anything on Webbers, is usually very thirsty). .

1.6K is revvier, with 6 speed perhaps, and the 1.8K is more torquey, with 5 speed box. HGF on a Caterham is less of an issue due to the positioning of the temp senders, but check all the same, and if it's been done, make sure it's been done properly.

Stick to 14 or 15" wheels, and "good" 7 colours, green/yellow, red, metallic blue.

I'd agree with the comment on paying less for the equivalent Westie, and if I was looking at a track biased car, I'd probably go that way, spending the money on engine/suspension upgrades instead. But as a road car, well try to see them side by side and you'll appreciate how much prettier and right looking the 7 is, (the firm realised this a long while ago, when they stopped Westfield from copying the shape and, thro the courts, confiscated the pre-lit body moulds from Westfield)

Most will have the de dion rear, but the live axle is alot more skittish, 4 speed is the give away, and the age. Westies can have IRS, but all are lively on our carp roads, and Caterham have used de dion for so long now they have just about perfected it.

You'll always be able to sell a genuine Caterham.

Edited by icepop on Friday 20th May 23:47

[xcentric]

300bhp/ton said:

Just checking, but do you know the difference between di-deon and IRS?

I do. Not driven either on a Caterham though so would like to hear views from people who have had both (or either).

icepop said:

Having owned a 1700 SS car for 9 years, (up to the Elise arriving), and for short term ownership and re-sale, I'd say go for the K series 1.6 or 1.8,(anything on Webbers, is usually very thirsty).

thanks for this - had a few Elises so know the K series engine in that - though it always lacked torque in the Elise. Will look out for one. However, thirst (unless crazy) isn't really an issue for a weekend car so if they're that much better on something, would still be interested.....

[ChevronB19]

Used to teach in a 1.4 K Series one at Croft. It was brilliant - for road fun i honestly can't see why you 'd want anything more.

[icepop]

ChevronB19 said:

Used to teach in a 1.4 K Series one at Croft. It was brilliant - for road fun i honestly can't see why you 'd want anything more.

Do you know, that might just sum up the whole thing. When I got my 7, the guy I bought it off used to run with a few others of all types, HPC's, K's, even BDR's, and he always used to say that regardless, no-one really got left behind, performance wise, on the road.

A 1.4 with a 6 speed box, will give just as much, (in some cases, more), driving pleasure as a R500.

(just pack some spare skiddies though, when out in the R500 )

[Sam_68]

xcentric said:

my perception is that Caterhams sell on better and retain value better - though I agree they are more to begin with. But I may be wrong?

You need to be conscious of the difference between percentage depreciation and actual cash money. You also need to be conscious of mileage. Both are something that 'Seven' (and, to be fair, many owners of other high performance cars) delude themselves badly over.

As an extreme example, there's a 10 year old R500 for sale on the classifieds at the moment for £25K. Lets say it was £36K new... nearly 70% retained value over 10 years (if we delude ourselves a bit further and ignore the dealer mark-up). Sounds wonderful, doesn't it?

... until you realise that it's only done 6.5K miles and that it's lost £11,000 in the process.

Now whilst the R500 is a superb car, you could have spent £3.5K on a Sylva or pre-lit Westfield 10 years ago and it'd still be worth the same or more money today. Zero percent depreciation, you'd have had almost as much fun (less performance, sure, but more exploitable and less worry about trashing it or blowing the fragile engine up, too) and with what you'd have made in compound profit investing the the other £30-oddK in stocks and shares in the intervening period, you'd now have enough to buy a nice little run-around with a roof for when it isn't 'Seven' weather... something like a Lamborghini Gallardo, maybe?

FWIIW, all kit cars, including Caterhams, take a fairly steep hit in their initial value then settle to pretty much zero depreciation, so if you're wanting something that stacks up financially, buy one of these cars that is old enough to have levelled out. And, bearing in mind that you'll either be paying interest on the money, or losing interest on money that could be invested elsewhere, don't pay extra just for a badge, if what you're really after is the performance/driving experience.

[trackerjack]

Op you asked for advice, did you not?

My advice is do what you like.

[Arthur Jackson]

If I were in the market I'd look for a well kept Sylva. As Sam says above, depreciation is all about the actual money, not the percentage.

[MC Bodge]

Assuming that the cars are all in good condition, which of the 'Seven' cars give the best driving experience? how does it compare with something like an Elise?

[Sam_68]

MC Bodge said:

Assuming that the cars are all in good condition, which of the 'Seven' cars give the best driving experience?

Of the ones I've driven (most of the better-known UK manufacturers) the Caterham has the slight edge in steering feel, the IRS Sylva probably the the slight edge in all-round handling and composure for road use (but it looks more of a 'kit car' than the Caterham, with less polished 'detailing' as a general rule).

The Westfield doesn't have quite such good steering feel as the Caterham, but the IRS models tend to be more softly set up, so are more compliant and progressive on the crappy tarmac we have to put up with in the UK these days (but conversely, they're not quite so sharp on the track).

At teh end of the day, though, they're all pretty similar and you can set them up to your own tastes. The advantage of the Caterham is it's more consistent, because there's a definite 'factory spec', so if you don't have the knowledge to adjust it yourself, its the safer option.

MC Bodge said:

...how does it compare with something like an Elise?

They're quite a bit different. 'Seven' type cars are a lot more raw. They're obviously quicker at the bottom end of the speed range, for similar power outputs, due to the lower weight (though the advantage tails off at the top end due to aerodynamics) and the handling is a lot more frenetic. You can throw 'Sevens' about by the scruff of their neck a lot more than Elises, whereas the Lotus responds best to quite a precise driving style.

Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 21st May 17:46

[HBFS]

My uncle bought a Seven just before summer, he took real care buying and got an 8 year old that had done just 250ish miles! One owner car, built by the owner!

He sold it a few months later for a tidy 1k profit which covered insurance, running costs and some!
As soon as my uncle posted the ad there was a stream of offers, half of which over what he paid for it.

He did spend a lot of time on auto trader though, the ad from which we bought was actually very poor and even on the telephone the seller didn't let onto how much of a gem the car was.

I remember driving it around an empty car park so well (Try insuring a seven at age 20!), beautiful little thing.

Like its been said already, Caterhams are easy to flog.

[xcentric]

Sam_68 said:

They're quite a bit different. 'Seven' type cars are a lot more raw. They're obviously quicker at the bottom end of the speed range, for similar power outputs, due to the lower weight (though the advantage tails off at the top end due to aerodynamics) and the handling is a lot more frenetic. You can throw 'Sevens' about by the scruff of their neck a lot more than Elises, whereas the Lotus responds best to quite a precise driving style.

Having had 3 Elises, I'd tend to agree with this.

trackerjack said:

Op you asked for advice, did you not?

My advice is do what you like.

don't worry, I will. It's just useful to hear the diverse opinions on here to help me decide. The great thing about advice is that you can ignore it if you wish.....

[MC Bodge]

Sam_68 said:

They're quite a bit different. 'Seven' type cars are a lot more raw. They're obviously quicker at the bottom end of the speed range, for similar power outputs, due to the lower weight (though the advantage tails off at the top end due to aerodynamics) and the handling is a lot more frenetic. You can throw 'Sevens' about by the scruff of their neck a lot more than Elises, whereas the Lotus responds best to quite a precise driving style.

Cheers for that. I reckon that a 'Seven' would really suit me. At the moment I ride a bike so I'm used to reasonable acceleration, if not the level of grip of a light sports car. If I get the chance to buy a 4 wheeled toy to sit next to the family car, I'm keen to get one.

Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 21st May 21:34