First track car - advice welcomed !
Discussion
Hi all,
Have been getting more into track days and now starting to think about buying a dedicated road legal track car rather than beat up my car with more regular track use.
I have two on my short list and am edging towards the first as it's much more affordable (at least purchase price, but would welcome thoughts on likely running expenses):
- BMW E36 M3 (minters seem to go for £6k ?)
- Porsche 968 Club Sport (much more money, £15k ?)
What are your thoughts guys ? I would be buying with a mate and we would share. We are both pretty inexperienced but looking for a car that has predicatable handling, rear wheel drive and enough power to be fun. We'd be using it to drive to track days and reliability is also very important.
The BMW seems like a good place to start and we could always step things up if (when?) we get the bug. If I go down this route what are the common problems with the E36 M3 and am I better buying a car that's already had some track use and the usual light track modifications ?
Would welcome your thoughts !
Stuart
Have been getting more into track days and now starting to think about buying a dedicated road legal track car rather than beat up my car with more regular track use.
I have two on my short list and am edging towards the first as it's much more affordable (at least purchase price, but would welcome thoughts on likely running expenses):
- BMW E36 M3 (minters seem to go for £6k ?)
- Porsche 968 Club Sport (much more money, £15k ?)
What are your thoughts guys ? I would be buying with a mate and we would share. We are both pretty inexperienced but looking for a car that has predicatable handling, rear wheel drive and enough power to be fun. We'd be using it to drive to track days and reliability is also very important.
The BMW seems like a good place to start and we could always step things up if (when?) we get the bug. If I go down this route what are the common problems with the E36 M3 and am I better buying a car that's already had some track use and the usual light track modifications ?
Would welcome your thoughts !
Stuart
Buying a roadlegal track car will work out cheaper than buying a road car and converting it, as you'll be paying 2nd hand value for the mods, not retail.
Do be wary, though, that the modifications have been carried out diligently. At least you know a road legal car will have been through an MOT (or should have done).
Track cars, as you know, often have power, handling and safety mods done. Each area is very important because a badly modified car is bad news. Bad power mods (e.g. remap/turbo conversions) may leave you with a big repair bill. Bad handling mods (e.g. badly setup suspension, or hack jobs) can make a car dangerous to drive. Bad safety mods (like poorly installed cages or brakes) could kill you.
There are lots of good cars out there, but also lots of bad ones. I'd take much more care buying modified than unmodified, and I'd prefer to buy from the person who did the mods as they will be able to answer questions. (Bear that in mind, though, as the car may be worth less when you come to sell it because the next buyer may see the mods as being unknown provedance since you didn't do them.)
If you have £15k to spend then getting a dedicated track only car is an option, or you could get the BMW and do the mods PROPERLY yourself.
Do be wary, though, that the modifications have been carried out diligently. At least you know a road legal car will have been through an MOT (or should have done).
Track cars, as you know, often have power, handling and safety mods done. Each area is very important because a badly modified car is bad news. Bad power mods (e.g. remap/turbo conversions) may leave you with a big repair bill. Bad handling mods (e.g. badly setup suspension, or hack jobs) can make a car dangerous to drive. Bad safety mods (like poorly installed cages or brakes) could kill you.
There are lots of good cars out there, but also lots of bad ones. I'd take much more care buying modified than unmodified, and I'd prefer to buy from the person who did the mods as they will be able to answer questions. (Bear that in mind, though, as the car may be worth less when you come to sell it because the next buyer may see the mods as being unknown provedance since you didn't do them.)
If you have £15k to spend then getting a dedicated track only car is an option, or you could get the BMW and do the mods PROPERLY yourself.
That's good feedback and appreciate that a load of modified cars out there might not have been worked on to a standard I would be happy with.
Much prefer NOT to spend £15k on the car although I suppose there is no reason why modifications I make to a standard car have to be done all at once.
For example, one thought I had was to buy a standard E36 M3 and just have the suspension worked on (people speak very highly of Centre Gravity). That might be a good enough start ?
Much prefer NOT to spend £15k on the car although I suppose there is no reason why modifications I make to a standard car have to be done all at once.
For example, one thought I had was to buy a standard E36 M3 and just have the suspension worked on (people speak very highly of Centre Gravity). That might be a good enough start ?
There was a thread in here a while ago where some kid came on wanting to buy a car for like £1k and spend £500 on track mods. I think I was a bit harsh with him as he was SO far off with his cost estimates for the modifications.
Ah hah - found it:
http://track-days.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That thread has a few hints on likley costs for various mods, but I've duplicated them below
Ah hah - found it:
http://track-days.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That thread has a few hints on likley costs for various mods, but I've duplicated them below
mrmr96 said:
Oh, ok. Sorry - I didn't realise quite how 'novice' you were to this kind of thing.
If you want new items then my guesstimates are:
Suspension £100 - £800 unfitted (springs to coilovers)
Brakes £200 - £1000 unfitted (pads/disc/fluid to big calipers)
Cage £300 - £1500 fitted (roll bar to full cage)
Seats £0 - £500 pair (stock to pair buckets)
Harnesses £100 - £300 pair (cheapest buckle to alloy fasteners)
Tyres £0 - £100 - £800 (stock to ex BTCC slicks x4 to road legal slicks x4)
You might be better buying a fully built car, or using 2nd hand parts, or not doing some of the mods.
If you want new items then my guesstimates are:
Suspension £100 - £800 unfitted (springs to coilovers)
Brakes £200 - £1000 unfitted (pads/disc/fluid to big calipers)
Cage £300 - £1500 fitted (roll bar to full cage)
Seats £0 - £500 pair (stock to pair buckets)
Harnesses £100 - £300 pair (cheapest buckle to alloy fasteners)
Tyres £0 - £100 - £800 (stock to ex BTCC slicks x4 to road legal slicks x4)
You might be better buying a fully built car, or using 2nd hand parts, or not doing some of the mods.
OP,
You're wanting a car that is reliable (a MUST), and handles well from the off. You're casual track guys, not a race team - so IMO developing your own car is not worth the aggro. At the same time, getting a race car with overly complicated adjustment is also a bad idea - you'll never have it set right, and as a result you'll have less fun.
IMO, you want something that is easy to set up, and has a wide window of adjustment. A 944 is great for this, so presumably a 968 is too =) Personally, I'd buy a ready prepped one of those, shake it down on the road, then track it on road legal treaded tyres - slicks on a public track day just ends in frustration for you, sitting behind everyone else on Pilot Cups, 888's or whatnot.
If you're willing to look away from tin top, you want a Caterham. Dead easy to set, loads of fun, and rarely go wrong. You'll also be able to instantly get setup advice from endless fora of people with the same or similar setup as you, and 7 owners get love from everyone on the road too. =)
You're wanting a car that is reliable (a MUST), and handles well from the off. You're casual track guys, not a race team - so IMO developing your own car is not worth the aggro. At the same time, getting a race car with overly complicated adjustment is also a bad idea - you'll never have it set right, and as a result you'll have less fun.
IMO, you want something that is easy to set up, and has a wide window of adjustment. A 944 is great for this, so presumably a 968 is too =) Personally, I'd buy a ready prepped one of those, shake it down on the road, then track it on road legal treaded tyres - slicks on a public track day just ends in frustration for you, sitting behind everyone else on Pilot Cups, 888's or whatnot.
If you're willing to look away from tin top, you want a Caterham. Dead easy to set, loads of fun, and rarely go wrong. You'll also be able to instantly get setup advice from endless fora of people with the same or similar setup as you, and 7 owners get love from everyone on the road too. =)
mohitos said:
I would be buying with a mate and we would share. We are both pretty inexperienced
Agree in advance who pays for damage when 1 It's bashed
2 The engine blows up
It's all very well being mates but when you've revved the tits off it when the engine blows to bits then he might not want to help with the costs. Same applies when he takes a corner too fast at Rockingham & slams into a wall.
Get an agreement well in advance.
RH
Rovinghawk said:
Agree in advance who pays for damage when
1 It's bashed
2 The engine blows up
It's all very well being mates but when you've revved the tits off it when the engine blows to bits then he might not want to help with the costs. Same applies when he takes a corner too fast at Rockingham & slams into a wall.
Get an agreement well in advance.
RH
That's actually bloody good advice.1 It's bashed
2 The engine blows up
It's all very well being mates but when you've revved the tits off it when the engine blows to bits then he might not want to help with the costs. Same applies when he takes a corner too fast at Rockingham & slams into a wall.
Get an agreement well in advance.
RH
I very rarely use my own car at track days and there is some great advice here already. Really, I've very little to add other than to reinforce Some Gump's alternative suggestion: a Caterham is extremely rewarding - and in ways which at first may not be entirely obvious.
And now that I've got standard thinking out of the way, how about another angle altogether? Just for fun I'll throw in the bias of something in the shed: Skyline's can do the job rather well!
And now that I've got standard thinking out of the way, how about another angle altogether? Just for fun I'll throw in the bias of something in the shed: Skyline's can do the job rather well!
The E36 M3 makes a great track car, good base on which to develop with well balanced rwd chassis which responds well to mods and setup and has a reasonably powerful standard engine. Pretty reliable too (touch wood), spares are relatively easy/cheap to come by, (E36 sold is massive numbers in the 90s)leaving more budget for track time/running costs.
Its undoubtedly cheaper to by a pre prepped car as the mods do mount up, usual rule of thumb is you will spend as at least as much on mods as the price of the car (and more if your paying others to do work) but there is something quite satisfying about gradually developing your own car.
Theres a wealth of knowledge on the various BMW forums too. Im biased having run an E36 M3 for a couple of years, but it gets my vote.
If your thinking of going this route, do make sure you buy a good base car, watch oiut for rust and neglect.
Porsche's attractive too but potentially pricey parts wise.
Its undoubtedly cheaper to by a pre prepped car as the mods do mount up, usual rule of thumb is you will spend as at least as much on mods as the price of the car (and more if your paying others to do work) but there is something quite satisfying about gradually developing your own car.
Theres a wealth of knowledge on the various BMW forums too. Im biased having run an E36 M3 for a couple of years, but it gets my vote.
If your thinking of going this route, do make sure you buy a good base car, watch oiut for rust and neglect.
Porsche's attractive too but potentially pricey parts wise.
Edited by TheFin on Saturday 28th May 05:55
Thanks for the advice on joint ownership. Had similar thoughts myself by so far have kept them to myself. Probably best we have an open conversation before, rather than after any mishaps.
My thoughts were:
- Any mechanical damage would be a shared expense. We will probably both want to drive fairly hard on track and as long as we agree to be as mechanically sympathetic as we can, it could easily just be bad luck when a part goes bang.
- Any accident damage caused whilst driving the car would be at that driver's expense,
Thoughts ?
My thoughts were:
- Any mechanical damage would be a shared expense. We will probably both want to drive fairly hard on track and as long as we agree to be as mechanically sympathetic as we can, it could easily just be bad luck when a part goes bang.
- Any accident damage caused whilst driving the car would be at that driver's expense,
Thoughts ?
As a few mentioned above buying will save you loads, i wish i had bought one already done!
I decided to buy a 328 E36, i got a good condition car for £1050 and i've spent so far £3.5k. But, its booked in for a cage and thats going to be over £1k so total so far is already £5.5k min!
I also wish, if i was going to do it myself i had just spent the extra on an E46, you can pick them up for anything from £2k but admittadly i havent looked at the condition of them!
Good luck with whatever you decide to go with!
I decided to buy a 328 E36, i got a good condition car for £1050 and i've spent so far £3.5k. But, its booked in for a cage and thats going to be over £1k so total so far is already £5.5k min!
I also wish, if i was going to do it myself i had just spent the extra on an E46, you can pick them up for anything from £2k but admittadly i havent looked at the condition of them!
Good luck with whatever you decide to go with!
boxsey said:
I'm sure you already know that a 968CS is good out of the box for trackdays. Of course, it's going to cost you a lot more to buy in the first place but if you decided in a year a two that you want to swap it for something more powerful, you'd probably get most of your money back.
I think that's a really good point. None of us ever plan to sell a car but, when we do, the slow depreciators are the ones to have. In that respect a modded E36 (it'll never remain standard if you use it for track days) does not stack up well next to a 968 CSNick Froome
Get an old E36 BMW 325/328
Strip it out. Put cheap bucket seats and harness in.
Then some sports suspension.
Total outlay will be around £1500, or £750 each.
Then just rape it until it goes wrong. Only fix what needs to be fixed.
If your you or your mate smash it, Sell off what you can, and then buy another.
That way, it is no biggy when things go wrong. Plus there is nothing better than going past a E92 M3 in a nail of a 3 series with rust coming off each lap.
Strip it out. Put cheap bucket seats and harness in.
Then some sports suspension.
Total outlay will be around £1500, or £750 each.
Then just rape it until it goes wrong. Only fix what needs to be fixed.
If your you or your mate smash it, Sell off what you can, and then buy another.
That way, it is no biggy when things go wrong. Plus there is nothing better than going past a E92 M3 in a nail of a 3 series with rust coming off each lap.
Thanks to all of you for some great advice. Pleased to report that we have not only agreed the ground rules but also found a car - Porsche 968 Club Sport.
It's being inspected on Tuesday and all being well will be with me next weekend.
Now all we have to do is work out which track days to attend!
It's being inspected on Tuesday and all being well will be with me next weekend.
Now all we have to do is work out which track days to attend!
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