Quality off road kit?

[Caractacus]

Hi Chaps,

I'm getting more into green laning and trials (to increase my own abilty more than anything else) with my Defender and will need to spend some dosh on upgrades in the next few weeks.

Before I spend the cash though, I thought I'd ask the PH crew what they feel is good, bad or just plain old ugly.

The only additions to my 110 so far are a steering guard and spare wheel carrier, so there's a bit to do. I'm not looking at turning it into a trials monster (wrong wheel base for that for starters!) but I do plan for weekends away in the middle of nowhere and perhaps some overlanding in the future (next year).

Many thanks for any hints/tips/advice.

C.

[Little Butch]

The main thing Is to protect the bottom of your Landy so that means Steering guard and then Diff guards.
Lift kit's allow you to run bigger tyres which will therefore give you more ground clearance..
Then you've got snorkels which protect your engine from flooding plus they look the mutts nuts!

You'll be suprised where a standard landy can get

[anonymous-user]

What tyres have you got?

Forget snorkels. It's a car not, a U-boat and raised air intakes only serve a genuine purpose in dusty conditions where the lower half of the vehicle is usually cloaked in dust. Don't even begin to kid yourself that they assist with wading. You need to do far more than just add a snorkel to get through deep water. The lower door seals for example will catch you out long before the engine gulps in anything serious.
Good recovery points are worth looking at. Rated high enough, firmly attached right through to the chassis and rotating is also good. JATE rings are ok for the front, although there are those in "the Community" who'll try to tell you that shackles designed for lifting 3 tonnes of WMIK clean off the ground (with a safety factor of four don't forget) just aren't suitable for recovering a 2 tonne Defender.
Think about inside too. Decent stowage for all your gear is well worth a bit of cash. Getting smacked round the head with a shackle as you crest a hill a bit too quick is absolutely no fun.
I'm undecided on diff guards and other clutter added to the axles. Consider the added unsprung weight versus what protection the really provide. And ask yourself, if the diff guard wasn't there, would you still actually strike whatever obstacle a diff guard offers protection against? What's the point of a 3mm thick diff guard when that extra 3mm might've got you clean over that last rock? Highly debatable unless you're going somewhere a bit extreme and very rocky.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 6th June 23:00

[Caractacus]

Crossflow Kid said:

What tyres have you got?

Forget snorkels. It's a car not, a U-boat and raised air intakes only serve a genuine purpose in dusty conditions where the lower half of the vehicle is usually cloaked in dust. Don't even begin to kid yourself that they assist with wading. You need to do far more than just add a snorkel to get through deep water. The lower door seals for example will catch you out long before the engine gulps in anything serious.
Good recovery points are worth looking at. Rated high enough, firmly attached right through to the chassis and rotating is also good. JATE rings are ok for the front, although there are those in "the Community" who'll try to tell you that shackles designed for lifting 3 tonnes of WMIK clean off the ground (with a safety factor of four don't forget) just aren't suitable for recovering a 2 tonne Defender.
Think about inside too. Decent stowage for all your gear is well worth a bit of cash. Getting smacked round the head with a shackle as you crest a hill a bit too quick is absolutely no fun.
I'm undecided on diff guards and other clutter added to the axles. Consider the added unsprung weight versus what protection the really provide. And ask yourself, if the diff guard wasn't there, would you still actually strike whatever obstacle a diff guard offers protection against? What's the point of a 3mm thick diff guard when that extra 3mm might've got you clean over that last rock? Highly debatable unless you're going somewhere a bit extreme and very rocky.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Monday 6th June 23:00

Hi Crossflow,

I've got GB AT2's all round which have been superb to date.

Re: snorkels, I've recently joined 4x4 Response and they suggest it is a good idea as the area I cover has been flooded at times (4' to 5' in places -on the lanes). I presume I'd need to run breathers for axles, etc up the snorkel?

I will need to do a fair amount of protecting the underside, too, as it is rather rocky in places around me (Cambrian Mountains). I feel prevention is better than a cure

The recovery points and stowage ideas are great - thanks. I'll get onto those right away.

Cheers,

C.

[anonymous-user]

Caractacus said:

Hi Crossflow,

I've got GB AT2's all round which have been superb to date.

Re: snorkels, I've recently joined 4x4 Response and they suggest it is a good idea as the area I cover has been flooded at times (4' to 5' in places -on the lanes). I presume I'd need to run breathers for axles, etc up the snorkel?

Yup, a snorkel/raised intake is only any good if everything else is protected to the same degree, so you need axle casing and gearbox breathers raised, electrics protected which on a newer car can mean completely relocating the under-seat ECUs and batteries, and fitting wading a plugs to stuff like the bell housing. That's before you've stripped out any carpets and other stuff you just don't want to get wet. Wading through 4-5' is getting fairly ambitious, bordering on being amphibious, bearing in mind that's half way up the windscreen so any 4x4 Response would probably end up putting you at even greater risk than those you're trying to reach.
AT tyres are ok. They can fill with mud a bit quick and then fail to clear so maybe invest in some mud terrains for when it gets claggy. I recently got a second set of wheels wearing michelin XZLs.
Narrower than the more popular choices at a 7.5 profile, these were the original factory fit for Defender when they first came out. Nice chunky tread, narrow enough to dig through any loose plop on the surface and nicely behaved on road too. Astonishingly quiet after General AT2s.

[Caractacus]

Crossflow Kid said:

Yup, a snorkel/raised intake is only any good if everything else is protected to the same degree, so you need axle casing and gearbox breathers raised, electrics protected which on a newer car can mean completely relocating the under-seat ECUs and batteries, and fitting wading a plugs to stuff like the bell housing. That's before you've stripped out any carpets and other stuff you just don't want to get wet. Wading through 4-5' is getting fairly ambitious, bordering on being amphibious, bearing in mind that's half way up the windscreen so any 4x4 Response would probably end up putting you at even greater risk than those you're trying to reach.
AT tyres are ok. They can fill with mud a bit quick and then fail to clear so maybe invest in some mud terrains for when it gets claggy. I recently got a second set of wheels wearing michelin XZLs.
Narrower than the more popular choices at a 7.5 profile, these were the original factory fit for Defender when they first came out. Nice chunky tread, narrow enough to dig through any loose plop on the surface and nicely behaved on road too. Astonishingly quiet after General AT2s.

Thanks for the info

My Defender is a 110, so is powered by stone age men under the bonnet (300Tdi)! Very little in the way of electrics to go pear-shaped really (thankfully!).

I have found the GB AT2's to be superb (but then again, they are the only tyres I've had on the 110) and you are right about the mud. In he snow and ice over the last two winters they were superb though.

An extra set of wheels with mud terrains has crossed my mind of late actually. I'm thinking of a set with more offset to the rim to increase the inside clearance (or is that a daft idea?).

Are there any brands I should steer clear of? Feel free to PM me if needs be. I've heard various comments about Britpart and Terrafirma. Then there's Bearmach. The brochure looks nice at least! LOL.

Cheers,

C.

[anonymous-user]

Wider track mucks up the steering geometry and flings mud up the side of the vehicle.
Britpart haven't got the strongest of reputations. That's all I'll say.

[Caractacus]

Crossflow Kid said:

Wider track mucks up the steering geometry and flings mud up the side of the vehicle.
Britpart haven't got the strongest of reputations. That's all I'll say.

I'd heard about the mud up the sides, but also been told (perhaps wrongly) that you get a better turning circle and don't have to muck about with spacers to acheive this.

Thanks for the input

Cheers,

C.

[300bhp/ton]

Caractacus said:

Hi Chaps,

I'm getting more into green laning and trials (to increase my own abilty more than anything else) with my Defender and will need to spend some dosh on upgrades in the next few weeks.

Before I spend the cash though, I thought I'd ask the PH crew what they feel is good, bad or just plain old ugly.

The only additions to my 110 so far are a steering guard and spare wheel carrier, so there's a bit to do. I'm not looking at turning it into a trials monster (wrong wheel base for that for starters!) but I do plan for weekends away in the middle of nowhere and perhaps some overlanding in the future (next year).

Many thanks for any hints/tips/advice.

C.

Hi.

First off, when you say trails who are they with? The ALRC won't allow some mods while the AWDC will.

As for prepping. Well it is amazing how far a standard vehicle can go, but there are some sensible things to look at.

Steering guard is good. Although I'm not convinced by diff guards at all so I'd not waste your money.

Some rock sliders might be a good idea though (they replace the sill panel).

And if you drive where there are lots of trees then I'd also look at at some body mounted tree sliders and some other body armour too. Including rear HD bumper corners and maybe even a rollcage.

If you are lone tekking some waffle boards and a winch (with all the bits) would be a highly sensible idea, although for trialling it'll make the vehicle less competitive, as it'll be longer with worse approach angles and more weight on the nose.

I'd also look into some diff lockers. Either ARB air lockers or Kamdiffs electro ones. These can be a great self recovery tool, although not allowed by the ALRC for trails use. But be warned lockers can break diffs and half shafts more easily.

I'd also look at better tyres (terrain depending). Personally I much prefer a decent mud terrain over an a/t, way better off road and often as good on.

I'd recommend some 235/85R16's as a straight fit, although if you want more of a monster truck look and plan a lift then some 33's might be worth it, although again run greater risk of busting stuff.

I like this tread pattern, they are remould, but surprisingly good on the road, even at 70mph on the m-way. But also work very well off road too.


With regards to snorkels - I say they are a worthwhile idea for either water or dusty environments. But I do agree axles breathers and the like are also needed to make the most of it.

I'd get these breathers as they work better than the genuine LR items:
http://www.cheviot4x4.com/shop/Products/Breathing%...

I'd also echo the other convience items, so stowage and lighting would be good upgrades. Such as halogen lamp if you still have sealed beam units and plenty of spot/flood lights. The lights I'd get would be the X-lite from X-Eng:
http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-LiteAZ.asp


Ok now the big one - suspension

The main aim of suspension improvements for off road use is to increase the amount of wheel travel - this is key!

And the reason it's so important is a lot of cheap kits don't.

Its true you may want to alter the suspension for a suspension lift, doing this raises the chassis of the Landy up and will allow easier fitment of bigger tyres. But many of these kits will actually reduce wheel travel and flex - so be warned.

There are two sides to suspension travel:

-Droop
-Compression

In the Landy world it is very common to use dislocating setups where the spring will leave it's perch under full flex. This is a HUGE debate on if it's good or not, or just a cop-op of developing a proper retained system.

However in the UK, 99% of the kits are dislocating ones, so if you don't want to go down this route you'll have to research it heavily. BTW the ALRC don't allow dislocating suspension for trials vehicles.

A big advantage of dislocating setups is that you can still run some sensible springs for road use, whereas retained setups would mean long soft springs.

Do you have anti roll bars on your 110? Of so X-Eng do a quick release bracket that might be worth a look. ARB's help on the road, but restrict off road ability.


For suspension I'd give Daivd @ Llama 4x4 a ring. Really great chap, although it might end up advising you to go off and buy something he doesn't sell but at least he is honest.
http://www.llama4x4.co.uk/

Cheviot and X-Eng also sell some good stuff too. As echo'd earlier, we highly wary of some of the Britpart stuff though.


Also be warned you can spend a fortune on suspension if you want too. If you want a budget improvement try this:

Pro Comp +2" longer shocks (pretty cheap from Paddock Spares normally).
Range Rover Red/White HD springs all round. (also pretty cheap from Paddock).

The springs are longer than normal rate ones, so will give you a mild lift 0.5-1" but they will be less likely to fall out under full flex than the shorter std rate ones. Get some HD lower spring retaining clamps from llama4x4 and use an exhaust claim or small D shackle to retain the top of the rear springs to the upper spring perch. This'll stop them falling out.

If you still want a lift Llama4x4 also sell some 1" lift spacers. These simply raise the lower spring seat up an inch. So you get the lift but retain the full suspension travel.

Oh, if you do increase the wheel travel and particularly droop make sure you add some longer brake lines. Llama4x4 sell them.

[C Lee Farquar]

Crossflow Kid said:

What tyres have you got?

Forget snorkels. It's a car not, a U-boat and raised air intakes only serve a genuine purpose in dusty conditions when... etc.

Top post and far more sense than the usual guff that's given elsewhere in reply to similar queries.

[300bhp/ton]

C Lee Farquar said:

Crossflow Kid said:

What tyres have you got?

Forget snorkels. It's a car not, a U-boat and raised air intakes only serve a genuine purpose in dusty conditions when... etc.

Top post and far more sense than the usual guff that's given elsewhere in reply to similar queries.

Reckon it depends what you do with the vehicle and how often though. I've refused to go through a ford as I deemed the risk of engine damage too high. The water was rather deep (bonnet would have been under water). Had I had a snorkel on I'd have gone through though.

I do think raised breathers are important too though.

[anonymous-user]

300bhp/ton said:

Reckon it depends what you do with the vehicle and how often though. I've refused to go through a ford as I deemed the risk of engine damage too high. The water was rather deep (bonnet would have been under water). Had I had a snorkel on I'd have gone through though.

If it's over the bonnet there's more than just the air intake you need to consider, or is there no electricity or oil in your car?

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

If it's over the bonnet there's more than just the air intake you need to consider, or is there no electricity or oil in your car?

only electric lights - 200Tdi.

Not sure what you mean about the oil - its in the engine and crankcase breather is connected to the air intake system.

[Caractacus]

Crossflow Kid said:

If it's over the bonnet there's more than just the air intake you need to consider, or is there no electricity or oil in your car?

Genuine question - how on earth would river water mix with the engine oli? My 300tdi doesn't have engine breathers (as far as I know) and if it does, surely there is positive pressure in the engine, so no risk of sucking the water in?

Re: electricity, the 300tdi has no ecu and can (apparantly) be run on a single wire. If I water proof (don't know if this is feasible) my interior and keep WD40 at the ready, I should be OK if the Defender & I go for a deep dip?

[anonymous-user]

300bhp/ton said:

only electric lights - 200Tdi.

What, no alternator? Or battery?

[anonymous-user]

Caractacus said:

Genuine question - how on earth would river water mix with the engine oli? My 300tdi doesn't have engine breathers (as far as I know) and if it does, surely there is positive pressure in the engine, so no risk of sucking the water in?

Correct. Unless you stall.

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

What, no alternator? Or battery?

battery would be fine submerged it wouldn't care. I admit the starter motor didn't like it though and needed replacing, but it was one hell of day and lots of fording. Had water over the pedals on the inside








And some from a trial a while back




I do admit you don't need a snorkel to do this. But if you do it often and the amount of damage a water locked engine can cause I reckon a snorkel isn't bad value for money.

[anonymous-user]

Oh gawd, he's got the photo album out again.

I think you need to re-read Caratacus's post. He's talking about a using his daily-drive mostly-standard 110 to up the ante a bit and try some more challenging lanes than he's used to but "doesn't want to turn it in to a trials monster".
Why d'you always assume the answer to everyone's problem is to go flinging their car in to a river or flooded quarry?

(your spotlights are half-full of water by the way - they'll rot out)

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 9th June 22:43

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Oh gawd, he's got the photo album out again.

I think you need to re-read Caratacus's post. He's talking about a using his daily-drive mostly-standard 110 to up the ante a bit and try some more challenging lanes than he's used to but "doesn't want to turn it in to a trials monster".
Why d'you always assume the answer to everyone's problem is to go flinging their car in to a river or flooded quarry?

Why do you always have to be a dick about everything? Pics are only a bit of fun - do you have no sense of humour?


BTW - OP says they do trial and part of a 4x4 response team. Oh and BTW - that Disco was a daily driver and was stock in the pics bar the flares and the bumper in the latter ones. The Blue 2.5 TD 90 is 100% stock and a daily farm hack.

[anonymous-user]

Crossflow Kid said:

Oh gawd, he's got the photo album out again.

300bhp/ton said:

do you have no sense of humour?

Hmmmm. Apparently so, it's just a bit too subtle for some.
Edited to add: