TD6 or 4.4 LPG
Discussion
I am after a RR but cant decide which to go for,I have about 10 to 12k to spend. A TD6 vogue woud be my ideal but I do about 8k a year and have considered a V8 with LPG which looks to be about 2k plus cheaper for the same car.
The car wil be for work - about 25 miles per day.
It will be for family jaunts.
Your thoughts would be appreciated please.....
The car wil be for work - about 25 miles per day.
It will be for family jaunts.
Your thoughts would be appreciated please.....
If the V8 is already converted (and certificated - and you have an independent inspection done), go for it. The M62 engine is a more reliable lump anyway. I have driven mine for 35k miles over three years (Prins conversion) without a fault and it lends itself to conversion extremely well.
The only reason I suggest "already converted" is that doing 8k miles per year doesn't justify the expense (£2.5k ish) of having one converted yourself. Economy wise, it will do mid to high teens on LPG, which cost-wise is equivalent to around 30mpg. LPG currently retails at 70-75p/l.
The TD6 is a bit of a sloth (subject to being chipped - even then it isn't brilliant) and the gearbox is a weakspot. Given the price you are intending to pay, you'll be looking at a high mileage car and the TD6 boxes usually start to go at about 100k. The V8 gearboxes are stronger.
Remember, you aren't buying a £12k car. You're buying a £60k car for £12k. ie. if it does go wrong, the bills will be those for a £60k car. A replacement gearbox is the best part of £2k, for example.
Do a search for "LPG" on the forum and there's plenty of info about.
Edit: Just noticed your P&J. Good choice....
The only reason I suggest "already converted" is that doing 8k miles per year doesn't justify the expense (£2.5k ish) of having one converted yourself. Economy wise, it will do mid to high teens on LPG, which cost-wise is equivalent to around 30mpg. LPG currently retails at 70-75p/l.
The TD6 is a bit of a sloth (subject to being chipped - even then it isn't brilliant) and the gearbox is a weakspot. Given the price you are intending to pay, you'll be looking at a high mileage car and the TD6 boxes usually start to go at about 100k. The V8 gearboxes are stronger.
Remember, you aren't buying a £12k car. You're buying a £60k car for £12k. ie. if it does go wrong, the bills will be those for a £60k car. A replacement gearbox is the best part of £2k, for example.
Do a search for "LPG" on the forum and there's plenty of info about.
Edit: Just noticed your P&J. Good choice....
Edited by JW911 on Monday 13th June 09:42
my opinion for what its worth (run a 4.4 V8 vogue) is avoid LPG conversions - yes, the owners sing the praises of conversions but i believe technicians who are not selling the lpg conversions!
look at it simply, if the engine was suitable for lpg conversion then LR/RR would get a whole new market - but the fact that they do not says enough for me!
if you cannot run the car 'as intended' then maybe its not the car for you?
and its not just RR's this applies to - i have a grand cherokee 4.7 V8 i'm about to sell and the jeep technicians all say DO NOT go the lpg route!
look at it simply, if the engine was suitable for lpg conversion then LR/RR would get a whole new market - but the fact that they do not says enough for me!
if you cannot run the car 'as intended' then maybe its not the car for you?
and its not just RR's this applies to - i have a grand cherokee 4.7 V8 i'm about to sell and the jeep technicians all say DO NOT go the lpg route!
I would say go for LPG. I've driven the td6 on a 2,000 mile round trip, and whilst it's still a great car, the td6 is nowhere near as good as the 4.4. I currently run a converted 4.2 s/c.
There are no real issues with the M62 engine converted to LPG. The only reason LR don't do it is firstly Range Rover owners who buy new are not known to be terribly cost conscious when it comes to fuel cost, and secondly LPG is not a mass market fuel, if manufacturers started producing lots of LPG cars, supply of the gas would not keep up.
Best people to listen to about LPG conversions are the people who own them. I would trust a factory technician as far as I could throw them, I think they like to slate LPG conversions because they don't understand them, and probably more specifically because they are not allowed to work on them, so they lose the service work! Most people who have LPG converted 4.4's love them. Most people who have TD6's wish they had 4.4's!
Check out the fullfatrr forum for loads of advice from current owners!
There are no real issues with the M62 engine converted to LPG. The only reason LR don't do it is firstly Range Rover owners who buy new are not known to be terribly cost conscious when it comes to fuel cost, and secondly LPG is not a mass market fuel, if manufacturers started producing lots of LPG cars, supply of the gas would not keep up.
Best people to listen to about LPG conversions are the people who own them. I would trust a factory technician as far as I could throw them, I think they like to slate LPG conversions because they don't understand them, and probably more specifically because they are not allowed to work on them, so they lose the service work! Most people who have LPG converted 4.4's love them. Most people who have TD6's wish they had 4.4's!
Check out the fullfatrr forum for loads of advice from current owners!
JW911 said:
Remember, you aren't buying a £12k car. You're buying a £60k car for £12k. ie. if it does go wrong, the bills will be those for a £60k car. A replacement gearbox is the best part of £2k, for example.
JW, I think you've just proven yourself wrong there. When the car was purchased for £60-70,000, I suspect you would have paid a lot more than £2,000 for a new gearbox, more like £10k. Edited by JW911 on Monday 13th June 09:42
It's just absolutely not true what you say about the costs being the same to service it as when new. I use a good specialist, so pay around 33% of main dealer service costs per hour, which works out even cheaper, since the specialist knows what he's doing, doesn't fleece me for diagnosis, and keep replacing major components which don't need replacing!
I agree with you about the TD6 not being as good as the 4.4 though!
Just checked your profile and realised I'm talking to somebody who runs a specialist garage!
Had to leave my rant up there just for comedy value of the irony!
Edited by bozmandb9 on Monday 13th June 21:28
bozmandb9 said:
JW, I think you've just proven yourself wrong there. When the car was purchased for £60-70,000, I suspect you would have paid a lot more than £2,000 for a new gearbox, more like £10k.
It's just absolutely not true what you say about the costs being the same to service it as when new. I use a good specialist, so pay around 33% of main dealer service costs per hour, which works out even cheaper, since the specialist knows what he's doing, doesn't fleece me for diagnosis, and keep replacing major components which don't need replacing!
I agree with you about the TD6 not being as good as the 4.4 though!
Just checked your profile and realised I'm talking to somebody who runs a specialist garage!
Had to leave my rant up there just for comedy value of the irony!
independents can be good but finding one who really knows the cars is very difficultIt's just absolutely not true what you say about the costs being the same to service it as when new. I use a good specialist, so pay around 33% of main dealer service costs per hour, which works out even cheaper, since the specialist knows what he's doing, doesn't fleece me for diagnosis, and keep replacing major components which don't need replacing!
I agree with you about the TD6 not being as good as the 4.4 though!
Just checked your profile and realised I'm talking to somebody who runs a specialist garage!
Had to leave my rant up there just for comedy value of the irony!
Edited by bozmandb9 on Monday 13th June 21:28
but independents do not have access to all factory software especially upgrades etc - also in most cases the independents end up buying the parts from a main dealer!
i stand by what i said about gas conversions - technicians i know from various marques all say NO! - they work on cars everyday and know what they are talking about and they see conversion related problems firsthand
as for the reason there are no mass market lpg cars and gas supplies being at 'risk' - i do admire your sense of humour/irony!
and buyers of new RR's are certainly cost conscious - thats how they are in the position to buy a new RR!
Edited by grand cherokee on Tuesday 14th June 09:30
bozmandb9 said:
JW, I think you've just proven yourself wrong there. When the car was purchased for £60-70,000, I suspect you would have paid a lot more than £2,000 for a new gearbox, more like £10k.
It's just absolutely not true what you say about the costs being the same to service it as when new. I use a good specialist, so pay around 33% of main dealer service costs per hour, which works out even cheaper, since the specialist knows what he's doing, doesn't fleece me for diagnosis, and keep replacing major components which don't need replacing!
I agree with you about the TD6 not being as good as the 4.4 though!
Just checked your profile and realised I'm talking to somebody who runs a specialist garage!
Had to leave my rant up there just for comedy value of the irony!
The specialist garage is a friend of mine. It's just absolutely not true what you say about the costs being the same to service it as when new. I use a good specialist, so pay around 33% of main dealer service costs per hour, which works out even cheaper, since the specialist knows what he's doing, doesn't fleece me for diagnosis, and keep replacing major components which don't need replacing!
I agree with you about the TD6 not being as good as the 4.4 though!
Just checked your profile and realised I'm talking to somebody who runs a specialist garage!
Had to leave my rant up there just for comedy value of the irony!
Interestingly, I didn't say the service costs are the same. The service costs are significantly less.
The point I try to make to people is that replacement parts are replacement parts. For example, you may be able to find a reconditioned gearbox for £1500. A new one will be quite a bit more. The fact that the specialist will fit it for £55 per hour instead of the dealer's £100 per hour will save you some money but it's still a helluva bill for a £12k car.
That said, the OP runs a 996 Turbo (as do I) so I would imagine he knows this already.
The Jeep specialist probably isn't so keen on LPG for a reason. An expert may correct me but I would imagine the GM 4.7 will require a Flashlube system to be fitted (and topped up regularly) in order to make LPG a practical proposition. Otherwise, there is a great risk that the valves will start to recess and cause no end of financial pain.
The reason LPG works so well in a 4.4 V8 Rangie (note: NOT the Jag engined cars) is that the M62 already has hardened valve seats meaning valve recession is not an issue and it doesn't really require Flashlube. The LPG gubbins fits neatly in the V of the engine and you can fit a huge fuel tank under the boot floor without compromising the load area.
Edited by JW911 on Tuesday 14th June 09:45
JW911 said:
The specialist garage is a friend of mine.
The reason LPG works so well in a 4.4 V8 Rangie (note: NOT the Jag engined cars) is that the M62 already has hardened valve seats meaning valve recession is not an issue and it doesn't really require Flashlube. The LPG gubbins fits neatly in the V of the engine and you can fit a huge fuel tank under the boot floor without compromising the load area.
I know, I've had a converted 4.4, and I currently have a converted 4.2 S/C, with the Jag engine, it has flashlube. I read all the scares before getting it done, and spoke to owners who have done up to 4 years and 170,000 miles on LPG without Valve seat recession. I know JE are very respected, and make a convincing case, but they also sell the hardened heads for £3k, so they aren't quite objective.The reason LPG works so well in a 4.4 V8 Rangie (note: NOT the Jag engined cars) is that the M62 already has hardened valve seats meaning valve recession is not an issue and it doesn't really require Flashlube. The LPG gubbins fits neatly in the V of the engine and you can fit a huge fuel tank under the boot floor without compromising the load area.
Edited by JW911 on Tuesday 14th June 09:45
Engine space is probably not quite as easy as on the 4.4, but it's manageable, my installation is pretty much invisible unless you know what you're looking for (including the filler cap!).
I just need a 996 Turbo now to go with it!
Gassing Station | Land Rover | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff