Discovery 2 TD5 or P38 DSE?
Discussion
OK, I recently sold my RR Classic V8 due to its horrendous fuel consumption, so am back to just the one car - my BMW 330Ci M-Sport.
I have been looking for another 'cheap' (sub-£2k) but the additional running costs of a second car are putting me off, as are reliability concerns of a 'cheaper' older car.
So, I'm considering selling the BMW and getting a slightly better 4x4, maybe somewhere between £5-£7.5k and pocketing the difference. I don't really have an upper budget if I'm honest, but I don't like tying up loads of money in a car and don't see the need to spend a shed load on getting from A to B.
Sooo...having a soft spot for Range Rovers, I've been looking at diesel P38's. I've always loved them, but given that they're a good 10-15 years old now, perhaps I'm just buying into a lot of trouble?
For similar money, I could buy a Discovery 2 with a TD5 engine which is a bit more modern design but, for me, not quite as 'charismatic.' I've never driven a Disco 2, are they a 'better' drive that the P38?
The other element to consider is my intended use - part of the reason for changing is to fulfil a desire to see a bit more of the world. So, there'd be greenlaning and camping in the UK, but I'm also planning on driving down to and through Morocco next year, and who knows where else!
So, is either car particularly better than the other and if so, why?
I have been looking for another 'cheap' (sub-£2k) but the additional running costs of a second car are putting me off, as are reliability concerns of a 'cheaper' older car.
So, I'm considering selling the BMW and getting a slightly better 4x4, maybe somewhere between £5-£7.5k and pocketing the difference. I don't really have an upper budget if I'm honest, but I don't like tying up loads of money in a car and don't see the need to spend a shed load on getting from A to B.
Sooo...having a soft spot for Range Rovers, I've been looking at diesel P38's. I've always loved them, but given that they're a good 10-15 years old now, perhaps I'm just buying into a lot of trouble?
For similar money, I could buy a Discovery 2 with a TD5 engine which is a bit more modern design but, for me, not quite as 'charismatic.' I've never driven a Disco 2, are they a 'better' drive that the P38?
The other element to consider is my intended use - part of the reason for changing is to fulfil a desire to see a bit more of the world. So, there'd be greenlaning and camping in the UK, but I'm also planning on driving down to and through Morocco next year, and who knows where else!
So, is either car particularly better than the other and if so, why?
The D2 is the better Landy. It's newer and uses the better bits of the p38 but is less complex. That said a p38 is still nice and arguably a more luxury place to sit.
P38's are notorious for high running costs. They like a lot of TLC. I don't think they are particularly unreliable but they have a lot of things that can need attention. The air suspension scares most people. It's actually fairly simple... but lots of garages haven't got a clue and will have you replace £2k's worth of crap because of it. Usually the bits you replace are 100% ok too.
Some p38's have TCS on the rear wheels, but I think this was usually the 4.6's. Most diesels don't. The BMW engine with an auto box is rather sluggish and gutless too and the manual feels a bit frantic. Also if memory serves the manual shifter feels a little odd as though it's angled for a LHD car. The BMW engine also suffers hot start issues too.
You can remap them, but I don't know to what level or success.
The D2 uses the well proven TD5 engine. A nice engine and not bad in stock trim. Lots of easy proven tuning on these too. So extra HP is not a real issue to achieve.
Depending on spec, most D2's have air rear suspension. This can be plagued by the same issues as the p38. The also have ACE (active cornering enhancement), this means an ACE equipped D2 will corner and ride better than a p38 on the road.
D2's also have a very good TCS system, so are likely to be superior in the snow, on grass or on sand. Most D2's however don't have a lever for the centre diff lock. Not a problem as you can buy a kit to reinstate it (a wise idea). Although there are a couple of years that you can't do this too, so it's worth looking up.
Both are big long vehicles and the D2 taller. But both should be capable for most off road situations.
Overall there is no denying the D2 is the better vehicle. But personally I'd probably go p38a. Not for any real reason though.
P38's are notorious for high running costs. They like a lot of TLC. I don't think they are particularly unreliable but they have a lot of things that can need attention. The air suspension scares most people. It's actually fairly simple... but lots of garages haven't got a clue and will have you replace £2k's worth of crap because of it. Usually the bits you replace are 100% ok too.
Some p38's have TCS on the rear wheels, but I think this was usually the 4.6's. Most diesels don't. The BMW engine with an auto box is rather sluggish and gutless too and the manual feels a bit frantic. Also if memory serves the manual shifter feels a little odd as though it's angled for a LHD car. The BMW engine also suffers hot start issues too.
You can remap them, but I don't know to what level or success.
The D2 uses the well proven TD5 engine. A nice engine and not bad in stock trim. Lots of easy proven tuning on these too. So extra HP is not a real issue to achieve.
Depending on spec, most D2's have air rear suspension. This can be plagued by the same issues as the p38. The also have ACE (active cornering enhancement), this means an ACE equipped D2 will corner and ride better than a p38 on the road.
D2's also have a very good TCS system, so are likely to be superior in the snow, on grass or on sand. Most D2's however don't have a lever for the centre diff lock. Not a problem as you can buy a kit to reinstate it (a wise idea). Although there are a couple of years that you can't do this too, so it's worth looking up.
Both are big long vehicles and the D2 taller. But both should be capable for most off road situations.
Overall there is no denying the D2 is the better vehicle. But personally I'd probably go p38a. Not for any real reason though.
Great review, thanks.
I'm the same as you, my head says D2, my heart says P38. The performance figures suggest the BMW diesel in the P38 s slightly quicker than then TD5 Disco 2, both 0-60 and top speed - but then that is only half the story, real world it could feel completely different in the midrange, where it counts.
I think I really need to test drive both and see which I prefer - at the moment the P38 wins my heart over my head, but driving a Disco 2 might just change my mind...
I'm the same as you, my head says D2, my heart says P38. The performance figures suggest the BMW diesel in the P38 s slightly quicker than then TD5 Disco 2, both 0-60 and top speed - but then that is only half the story, real world it could feel completely different in the midrange, where it counts.
I think I really need to test drive both and see which I prefer - at the moment the P38 wins my heart over my head, but driving a Disco 2 might just change my mind...
For the money you should get a later TD5 with the headlight conversion, which will make it look more modern. With the P38, even the newer ones look the same as the older ones, so it looks as if you'be bought a £2k car when if fact you may have paid £7k for it. I think the TD5s look a bit more classy as well.
cpas said:
For the money you should get a later TD5 with the headlight conversion, which will make it look more modern. With the P38, even the newer ones look the same as the older ones, so it looks as if you'be bought a £2k car when if fact you may have paid £7k for it. I think the TD5s look a bit more classy as well.
I disagree with that bit I'm afraid! I think the early P38's do look dated, but the newer ones with clear/smoked headlight, indicator and tail lights look "fresh" and as modern as a facelifted TD5 Discovery 2.Is the TD5 really that much better an engine than the P38 2.5 BMW diesel? The figures on Parkers suggest they are very similar performance!
Mike_C said:
I disagree with that bit I'm afraid! I think the early P38's do look dated, but the newer ones with clear/smoked headlight, indicator and tail lights look "fresh" and as modern as a facelifted TD5 Discovery 2.
Is the TD5 really that much better an engine than the P38 2.5 BMW diesel? The figures on Parkers suggest they are very similar performance!
The main difference is that the TD5 has no power until at least 1500 rpm. Although once it gets going it is better that the BMW engine. I found waiting at junctions in the TD5 a pain holding the revs ready for a gap to appear.Is the TD5 really that much better an engine than the P38 2.5 BMW diesel? The figures on Parkers suggest they are very similar performance!
In terms of driving they are completely different, the P38 offering a more limo like event, but at the cost of roll and particularly in braking a lot of pitch, although you get used to it. My TD5 had the ARC/ACE suspension which made it excellent in bends and the different suspension design controlled brake pitch much better.
I've had a 300 series, TD5 and P38 BMW, of the 3 engine I would put the BMW first (not the most powerful but consistent), 300 series second (functional, workmanlike, but crude and unrefined) and TD5 last although it is refined and ultimately powerful, just down to the lack of low speed power.
Had a P38 (albeit a 4.6 that blew up). Have driven a TD5 D2 quite a bit. Bought a Shogun.
My two main problems with the D2 were that the clutch was incredibly heavy, and it's also too tall to fit into most carparks (1m95). After my experiences with a P38 I'd never consider buying another.
Very impressed with the shogun so far. Far superior to both P38 and D2 on-road and loses surprisingly little to them offroad. Some ground clearance is compromised and axle articulation isn't as good but I'm yet to find a situation where that's been a problem. A useful amount of extra power too. If you can stomach the image then I'd seriously suggest you test one as your budget will get you a nice condition diesel (I'd not consider the petrol, for various reasons).
P.s. forget the DSE, very basic spec. Only later DHSE will do.
My two main problems with the D2 were that the clutch was incredibly heavy, and it's also too tall to fit into most carparks (1m95). After my experiences with a P38 I'd never consider buying another.
Very impressed with the shogun so far. Far superior to both P38 and D2 on-road and loses surprisingly little to them offroad. Some ground clearance is compromised and axle articulation isn't as good but I'm yet to find a situation where that's been a problem. A useful amount of extra power too. If you can stomach the image then I'd seriously suggest you test one as your budget will get you a nice condition diesel (I'd not consider the petrol, for various reasons).
P.s. forget the DSE, very basic spec. Only later DHSE will do.
agent006 said:
Had a P38 (albeit a 4.6 that blew up). Have driven a TD5 D2 quite a bit. Bought a Shogun.
My two main problems with the D2 were that the clutch was incredibly heavy, and it's also too tall to fit into most carparks (1m95). After my experiences with a P38 I'd never consider buying another.
Very impressed with the shogun so far. Far superior to both P38 and D2 on-road and loses surprisingly little to them offroad. Some ground clearance is compromised and axle articulation isn't as good but I'm yet to find a situation where that's been a problem. A useful amount of extra power too. If you can stomach the image then I'd seriously suggest you test one as your budget will get you a nice condition diesel (I'd not consider the petrol, for various reasons).
P.s. forget the DSE, very basic spec. Only later DHSE will do.
I quite like the Shoguns, but the only good looking ones are the early ones.My two main problems with the D2 were that the clutch was incredibly heavy, and it's also too tall to fit into most carparks (1m95). After my experiences with a P38 I'd never consider buying another.
Very impressed with the shogun so far. Far superior to both P38 and D2 on-road and loses surprisingly little to them offroad. Some ground clearance is compromised and axle articulation isn't as good but I'm yet to find a situation where that's been a problem. A useful amount of extra power too. If you can stomach the image then I'd seriously suggest you test one as your budget will get you a nice condition diesel (I'd not consider the petrol, for various reasons).
P.s. forget the DSE, very basic spec. Only later DHSE will do.
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