Discussion
Worth looking at this months issue as the new M600 gets a very good review against the other new kids on the block. The figures for it are a bit disappointing as it has more power and less weight than the other cars but here below are some stats from the group test:
Acceleration Times
0-30 1st 911, 2nd MP4, 3rd 458
0-60 1st MP4, 2nd 911, 3rd 458
0-100 1st MP4, 2nd joint 911 and 458
Track Times
1st 458 - 1.19.3
2nd MP4 - 1.20.6
I like most on here would have expected it to be at the front in most of these stats as surely that is why they are asking £200k for it.
Acceleration Times
0-30 1st 911, 2nd MP4, 3rd 458
0-60 1st MP4, 2nd 911, 3rd 458
0-100 1st MP4, 2nd joint 911 and 458
Track Times
1st 458 - 1.19.3
2nd MP4 - 1.20.6
I like most on here would have expected it to be at the front in most of these stats as surely that is why they are asking £200k for it.
Edited by barefoot on Monday 20th June 15:43
M600 hasn't got the same level of electronic tomfoolery as the rest, which probably doesn't help the stats.
At McLaren when EVO came out :-
Tannoy : "Would MP4-12C designer please report to Mr Dennis's office. Immediately."
5 seconds later, designer runs into the said office.
Ron : "
ing 458 vice nuts right now."
Designer : "But..."
Ron : " I fear for your Wife and kids when pasta eating ! And another thing, ....."
At this point the carpark empties at speed as everyone remembers that doctors appointment they forgot about.....
At McLaren when EVO came out :-
Tannoy : "Would MP4-12C designer please report to Mr Dennis's office. Immediately."
5 seconds later, designer runs into the said office.
Ron : "
ing 458 vice nuts right now."Designer : "But..."
Ron : "
I fear for your Wife and kids when pasta eating ! And another thing, ....."At this point the carpark empties at speed as everyone remembers that doctors appointment they forgot about.....
Thats a fair point but does the electronics help with the lap times? I thought the M600's only advantage over the likes of Porsche/Maclaren/Ferrari would be its better performance as that really is the only thing the car has going for it against such rivals and costing as much as it does. And surely in real world situations with damp roads etc the lack of the electronics would make it even slower than these rivals? If the car is not even as quick then what is the selling point it can use to convince customers to spend their £200k on a new car and company instead of the established ones?
Your scenario with Ron Dennis might be echoed by the owner of Noble as surely he expected his car, having less weight and more power, to be the quickest in this niche sector.
Your scenario with Ron Dennis might be echoed by the owner of Noble as surely he expected his car, having less weight and more power, to be the quickest in this niche sector.
Edited by barefoot on Monday 20th June 16:54
tbh these stats dont mean much, what about accelerating out of a corner at 70mph, or overtaking speeds.
Don't get me wrong though i would still choose the mclaren or 458 over the M600, the M600 needs much more PR to make it a status symbol with the rich and famous, they should do a crazy ass R version that is just silly power, make it fast enough to compete with the twin turbo gallardos, then you will get people willing to pay 300k+, its just the way it is, most people class supercars on acceleration times and top speed and styling.
Unfortunately most buyers in this market are ignorant about true performance, they want image 1st, then straight line acceleration and top speed for bragging rights.
Don't get me wrong though i would still choose the mclaren or 458 over the M600, the M600 needs much more PR to make it a status symbol with the rich and famous, they should do a crazy ass R version that is just silly power, make it fast enough to compete with the twin turbo gallardos, then you will get people willing to pay 300k+, its just the way it is, most people class supercars on acceleration times and top speed and styling.
Unfortunately most buyers in this market are ignorant about true performance, they want image 1st, then straight line acceleration and top speed for bragging rights.
barefoot said:
If the car is not even as quick then what is the selling point it can use to convince customers to spend their £200k on a new car and company instead of the established ones?
It's more fun to drive, and it's different.Look at the Morgan AeroMax. £110K for what? Not quick and strange looking. Still sold 100 of them though.
I don't think everyone are sheep like. If they are, supercar gatherings are going to be even more boring affairs than they are now.
'My MP4 has carbon side panels!'
'Well mine has the carbon wing mirrors!'
'I've got the Button lightweight pack!'
What a miserable future...
Tuxman
Once you read the article you will find that Ferrari were allowed nowhere near the car well before they collected it and during their time with it to make sure of fair play! I agree that it is different but not like the Morgan Aero, that is so way out like say an Atom is at £100k and is in a totally different market especially being half the price! The Noble isnt, it is very similar in design and concept to the said cars it is competing against, as for more fun to drive how do you come to that conclusion?. The only real differences are it is from a very small company it has no electronic aids bar the TC it has no heritage no proven track record etc etc. Now if that makes it desirable and enough to merit decent sales because of these differences then great lets hope potential owners in this small market sector feel the same way and another small British car manufacturer can succede against the odds.
Once you read the article you will find that Ferrari were allowed nowhere near the car well before they collected it and during their time with it to make sure of fair play! I agree that it is different but not like the Morgan Aero, that is so way out like say an Atom is at £100k and is in a totally different market especially being half the price! The Noble isnt, it is very similar in design and concept to the said cars it is competing against, as for more fun to drive how do you come to that conclusion?. The only real differences are it is from a very small company it has no electronic aids bar the TC it has no heritage no proven track record etc etc. Now if that makes it desirable and enough to merit decent sales because of these differences then great lets hope potential owners in this small market sector feel the same way and another small British car manufacturer can succede against the odds.
barefoot said:
Phil
You have driven all these cars in the real world and come to that conclusion? You are a lucky guy!
You have driven all these cars in the real world and come to that conclusion? You are a lucky guy!
Nearly forgot :-
barefoot said:
Now if that makes it desirable and enough to merit decent sales because of these differences then great lets hope potential owners in this small market sector feel the same way and another small British car manufacturer can succede against the odds.
Yup. I think there's a place for different cars all over the price ranges. Morgan are launching a 3 wheeler. The interest is amazing! If you can make things work with the numbers of cars in 50's to 100+'s you've got a chance. If the business model needs 1,000's then you're in trouble....Tuxman
I don't know but Maclaren had a team with the M12 and Noble nearly always have a couple of guys with their car. Evo deliberately made sure the 458 had the same road tyres on when it did the track times so it had not been set up by Ferrari for the track but it still put up the best lap time. After what Harris in particular had said Evo tried to make sure the 458 was competing on a level playing field. The M12 could still not get to the 458's time with the special Corsa road/track tyres developed for the car. It seems the press that matter all like the 458 better than the M12.
I don't know but Maclaren had a team with the M12 and Noble nearly always have a couple of guys with their car. Evo deliberately made sure the 458 had the same road tyres on when it did the track times so it had not been set up by Ferrari for the track but it still put up the best lap time. After what Harris in particular had said Evo tried to make sure the 458 was competing on a level playing field. The M12 could still not get to the 458's time with the special Corsa road/track tyres developed for the car. It seems the press that matter all like the 458 better than the M12.
I agree up to around 100k there is a niche market but not I am afraid at 200k! And yes the Morgan 3 wheeler is a good example but a car made of carbon with a turbo mid engine at 200k is so not left field enough to be different anyone buying the M600 will be a very brave/rich man. Yes there are still quite a few of people around with the funds but the sales of this car will not happen and soon it will be a rich man aka ascari moving on to something else I am afraid again IMHO. But you make a valid point that there is a market for such a car in the 50-100k market and I think Lee Noble will be the next person to bring a car out that fits the bill. If and its a big if, he does then that is where the interest to most of us on Pistonheads lies I hope he makes it and I hope he makes a better interior than his previous offerings!
barefoot said:
But you make a valid point that there is a market for such a car in the 50-100k market...
I didn't make my point clear. I meant it'll work if the business model is ok with 50+ cars not £50k-100K. Zonda worked and was double the cost 12 years ago with an off the shelf Merc engine. Didn't sell many of them and kept going.Anyway I think think I'm right and you think I'm wrong. C'est la vie.
If noble have sold 58 cars then I look like being wrong and they should make their 200 a year target to make it viable. I hope I am I would gladly take it on the chin for being so anti m600. It's always a honest opinion I have no axe at all to grind I honestly never thought there were enough people out there to buy it with the competition and price they were asking!
I think the Zonda worked because it was different in styling, true supercar styling, ever since a kid having car posters on my walls, the countach, the F40, porsche 959, they were just in a different league with styling. The Zonda had large appeal to rich people who wanted to look good, drive fast and show status.
The M600 seems to have a split personality,built and geared more towards people like the existing Noble client base who appreciate good drivers cars, but priced and finished for a different client base.
I think we would all love to own a M600 at the right price, if at development stage they had aimed for at the high end 911 market, pricing against GT3 etc..it would have been a much better market position, even if it ended up with GRP bodywork to lower cost.
It is good to be different, but it has to be different in a good way! because one day a 458 will park next to you and you will be thinking damn i could have bought one of those for 50k less.
The M600 is damn fine car, i do not think anybody doubts that, but its not how good the M600 is, its about how good the competition/alternatives are, the M600 can not be compared to a cheap alterative to a Zonda, it is not in the same class with styling which counts for alot in the supercar world.
The M600 seems to have a split personality,built and geared more towards people like the existing Noble client base who appreciate good drivers cars, but priced and finished for a different client base.
I think we would all love to own a M600 at the right price, if at development stage they had aimed for at the high end 911 market, pricing against GT3 etc..it would have been a much better market position, even if it ended up with GRP bodywork to lower cost.
It is good to be different, but it has to be different in a good way! because one day a 458 will park next to you and you will be thinking damn i could have bought one of those for 50k less.
The M600 is damn fine car, i do not think anybody doubts that, but its not how good the M600 is, its about how good the competition/alternatives are, the M600 can not be compared to a cheap alterative to a Zonda, it is not in the same class with styling which counts for alot in the supercar world.
If I was one of the 58 that have bought or ordered one I would be a bit concerned that the car was supplied with a tc problem. You would think by now the car should be sorted as it's their one and only production ready test car. Knowing it was going to be up against a new Mac and the rest you would have thought noble would have given it their best shot just like Ferrari do ! No excuse I am afraid this was a great time to show the market how good the car is.
What we have not seen is the cracking job of promoting the car to the right people !!! From Monaco to Le-man the M600 has been there , along with goodwood in this country and every event it could possibly attend , it's carved it's own Market so people have to look !!!
At le man it took part in the drivers parade as well as private track events with a invitation from Lord March himself it even turned up at Silverstone for our Noble track evening on my invitation !!!! Just to prove it has not forgotten it's roots .
Production is to be 15 cars this year for next year who knows either way it's an exiting prospect :-)
Oh and if you see it at goodwood coming up the hill see if you can see who is driving :-)
At le man it took part in the drivers parade as well as private track events with a invitation from Lord March himself it even turned up at Silverstone for our Noble track evening on my invitation !!!! Just to prove it has not forgotten it's roots .
Production is to be 15 cars this year for next year who knows either way it's an exiting prospect :-)
Oh and if you see it at goodwood coming up the hill see if you can see who is driving :-)
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