Discussion
What type of lifters do you LS engine guys use? Do you end up having roller lifters for the higher power cams or manage with normal ones?
The reason why I ask is out of interest, and because I suspect my SBC has just suffered a lifter failure. When I rebuilt my engine 1.5yrs ago I replaced by existing solid roller lifters with some rebuildable Comp Cams ones. I spoke to two engine builders during my rebuild and they were amazed that I had got 18Kmiles out of the first set. Now with the new ones it looks like one has failed at 3.6kmiles, causing me to miss my Silverstone track evening just to make it a little worse!
Still I did met Gavin Dunn at Silverstone who depressed me further by telling me of a number of Ultimas that had just had this LS and that LS installed, the day may come for me, one day...
The reason why I ask is out of interest, and because I suspect my SBC has just suffered a lifter failure. When I rebuilt my engine 1.5yrs ago I replaced by existing solid roller lifters with some rebuildable Comp Cams ones. I spoke to two engine builders during my rebuild and they were amazed that I had got 18Kmiles out of the first set. Now with the new ones it looks like one has failed at 3.6kmiles, causing me to miss my Silverstone track evening just to make it a little worse!
Still I did met Gavin Dunn at Silverstone who depressed me further by telling me of a number of Ultimas that had just had this LS and that LS installed, the day may come for me, one day...
Phil, if you are planning to run the sbc for any length of time maybe its time to look at the isky bronze bushed lifters..Although I have fit several sets of solid needle-type lifters to SBC's they are a bit of a liability... though much less so with a hydraulic set-up.. the way to avoid needle failure with a solid set up is the fully bushed alternative... bit more expensive though.
Or, if you have a solid cam in there you could trade a little performance by fitting hydraulic roller lifters which do seem to cushion the blow and last very well.. Tis a well known trick over the pond and helps take the edge off bigger cams.
G luck.
Or, if you have a solid cam in there you could trade a little performance by fitting hydraulic roller lifters which do seem to cushion the blow and last very well.. Tis a well known trick over the pond and helps take the edge off bigger cams.
G luck.
Thanks for the info Dave.
I have just stripped the top the engine for inspection and found that a lifter has indeed failed, so much so that I can not get the damn thing out of the lifter bore. So the axle has failed, shifted and stopping it from coming out, so now I suppose that means the only way is to access it from the bottom, ie cam out, meaning bl00dy engine out again. Think I am getting a bit bored of that job now so suspect the car may be off the road for sometime.
Spoke to Charles at Real Steel and he also mentioned 12 months, 3000 mile limits... that really does seem very poor so I should have researched an alternative before my rebuild. Happy days
I have just stripped the top the engine for inspection and found that a lifter has indeed failed, so much so that I can not get the damn thing out of the lifter bore. So the axle has failed, shifted and stopping it from coming out, so now I suppose that means the only way is to access it from the bottom, ie cam out, meaning bl00dy engine out again. Think I am getting a bit bored of that job now so suspect the car may be off the road for sometime.
Spoke to Charles at Real Steel and he also mentioned 12 months, 3000 mile limits... that really does seem very poor so I should have researched an alternative before my rebuild. Happy days
No real difference in lifter tech from SBC to LS7 except LS7 is hydraulic roller and quite possibly much lighter springs and valves than supplied on the AFR heads that Gail normally fits. LS7 no brainer for newbuild but @15K all in to change. Other LS cheaper but still a lot more than changing to hydraulic lifters and possibly lighter springs. Rev kit was also recommended to me for keeping roller lifters in contact with cam by guys in the US
Edited by MarkWebb on Thursday 23 June 08:29
MarkWebb said:
No real difference in lifter tech from SBC to LS7 except LS7 is hydraulic roller and quite possibly much lighter springs and valves than supplied on the AFR heads that Gail normally fits. LS7 no brainer for newbuild but @15K all in to change. Other LS cheaper but still a lot more than changing to hydraulic lifters and possibly lighter springs. Rev kit was also recommended to me for keeping roller lifters in contact with cam by guys in the US
Theres quite a difference in the cam core and profiles though... LS is much larger in base diameter and designed as a street roller.... being gentle on valve gear.Edited by MarkWebb on Thursday 23 June 08:29
You can get some very good street-roller sbc cams Phil, designed for long life on solid needle roller lifters.
Both Jones cams and UD Harold offer such grinds.... teamed with hollow stem valves, ti retainers and beehive springs, LS style valve gear is achievable... but not cheap.
Worth talking to Dave Hodge for a view/ route on alternative, economical power, if not already done so.
G luck.
MarkWebb said:
You have a point Dave. I personally think that AFR std springs as supplied by AS are way to heavy for the cams in use. I only say this because Comp Cams advised me that this was the case.
Tis a great way of controlling valve gear and getting everything to seal/ follow the cam profile... for good initial dyno figures of course ! Still maintain these are not drag motors....the market most suppliers seem to spec their products for.
A good drag motor does 400 passes and hopefully the drive back to the start line...some 200 miles ... hardly enough to get round a couple of track days !!
Can you spot what is missing...
Looks like I made a bad choice with the Comp Cams solid roller lifters, after doing a bit of reading it is looking like they may only be good for 2000 (yes 2000) road going miles.
I would have started stripping the engine but I seem to have mislaid my engine to engine stand mounting bolts, hopefully get some more tomorrow! Then I will look inside and see what state the cam lobe is in...
Looks like I made a bad choice with the Comp Cams solid roller lifters, after doing a bit of reading it is looking like they may only be good for 2000 (yes 2000) road going miles.
I would have started stripping the engine but I seem to have mislaid my engine to engine stand mounting bolts, hopefully get some more tomorrow! Then I will look inside and see what state the cam lobe is in...
Well engine pretty much stripped as much as needed for now.
I got the cam out to find one lobe in a bit of a mess, but am hopeful that I can get it cleaned up. After a bit of www reading it sound like most of the mess could be material picked up and pressed onto the lobe by the roller. It seems that a lot of material has come from the bottom of the lifter bore, as a notch has been made where the roller has been pressed against it. It seems that the axle is intact, so the needles have failed allowing the roller to move around, but this has caused the lifter to splay out a bit at the axle locations stopping the lifter from coming out the top of the bore. So now I think I need to drill out the link bar lug and take it out from underneath (where the cam normally sits) - it is never easy.
So far all 14 lifters that are out of the block look good and rollers smooth, real bu66er that just one failing can cause such a big issue, at such a low mileage too!
I got the cam out to find one lobe in a bit of a mess, but am hopeful that I can get it cleaned up. After a bit of www reading it sound like most of the mess could be material picked up and pressed onto the lobe by the roller. It seems that a lot of material has come from the bottom of the lifter bore, as a notch has been made where the roller has been pressed against it. It seems that the axle is intact, so the needles have failed allowing the roller to move around, but this has caused the lifter to splay out a bit at the axle locations stopping the lifter from coming out the top of the bore. So now I think I need to drill out the link bar lug and take it out from underneath (where the cam normally sits) - it is never easy.
So far all 14 lifters that are out of the block look good and rollers smooth, real bu66er that just one failing can cause such a big issue, at such a low mileage too!
Worth checking how round the lifter bores are Phil..... a more capeable cam-profile will find any slight over tolerance.... especially in a solid set up and will beat the valve train to death ! ...excess sideloading of lifters
is something to be avoided if poss.
Just out of interest, after the failure how long did it run.... could the plug colour be indicative of anything ?
When you rebuilt last time did you keep the heads in the same place (bank to bank) and which intake gasket did you use to rebuild ?
Are you running a distributor or crank sensor, if dissy what is it like internally ? (msd types get in a pretty lousy corroded state).... all to rule out increased cylinder temps/ advanced timing/weak mixture clues causing
excess heat and loss of valve clearance.... in other words before a rebuild with subsequent recurrent failure.
Wasnt the last failure a cam snap ?
Have a very good look around.
Rgds.
DW.
is something to be avoided if poss.
Just out of interest, after the failure how long did it run.... could the plug colour be indicative of anything ?
When you rebuilt last time did you keep the heads in the same place (bank to bank) and which intake gasket did you use to rebuild ?
Are you running a distributor or crank sensor, if dissy what is it like internally ? (msd types get in a pretty lousy corroded state).... all to rule out increased cylinder temps/ advanced timing/weak mixture clues causing
excess heat and loss of valve clearance.... in other words before a rebuild with subsequent recurrent failure.
Wasnt the last failure a cam snap ?
Have a very good look around.
Rgds.
DW.
Here is a pic of the cam, you can clearly see which lobe has suffered:
I had adjusted the valve clearances 9 days prior, before going to Cadwell, so had done about 250 miles since adjustment. When I turned the engine off, after the failure I found excessive clearance on this one valve. The adjuster was all locked off ok, so had not worked loose. All plugs approx same colour, so no clues there either. Push rod seems straight, a might do a simple compression test of that cylinder to confirm valve is seated correctly.
I run fuel injection with the Ford EDIS-8 for ignition, sensor on the flywheel. All running sweet until getting the clatter of valvetrain noise. I ran for about 1.5mins approx before switching off. Lifter feels ok in its bore, no different to any others I think.
I had adjusted the valve clearances 9 days prior, before going to Cadwell, so had done about 250 miles since adjustment. When I turned the engine off, after the failure I found excessive clearance on this one valve. The adjuster was all locked off ok, so had not worked loose. All plugs approx same colour, so no clues there either. Push rod seems straight, a might do a simple compression test of that cylinder to confirm valve is seated correctly.
I run fuel injection with the Ford EDIS-8 for ignition, sensor on the flywheel. All running sweet until getting the clatter of valvetrain noise. I ran for about 1.5mins approx before switching off. Lifter feels ok in its bore, no different to any others I think.
Well anything more than a thou or two of adjustment maybe a clue, if within and adjustments were not isolated to one area of the motor then pure common roller failure looks likely.
If that lobe is not too pitted then polish with 2000'S w+d with some metal polish or toothpaste and refit with some hydraulic lifters. You may have to replace the pushrods depending on lifter choice and keep valve spring open pressure to under 500. If you are running iron block/ally head combo pre-load the lifters to mid range. Most likely thatll be the last time you remove the rocker covers for some time... so long as you are 100% all parts of the valve train are okay.
Am off until Thursday Pm.
G luck.
If that lobe is not too pitted then polish with 2000'S w+d with some metal polish or toothpaste and refit with some hydraulic lifters. You may have to replace the pushrods depending on lifter choice and keep valve spring open pressure to under 500. If you are running iron block/ally head combo pre-load the lifters to mid range. Most likely thatll be the last time you remove the rocker covers for some time... so long as you are 100% all parts of the valve train are okay.
Am off until Thursday Pm.
G luck.
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