Driving on a ban
Discussion
Considering the rate at which high-mileage professional drivers and those who are required to drive as part of their job are gaining points it is inevitable that many will be banned for 6 months.
This is not really surprising as the risk of being cuaght must be balanced against the loss of job, career, home, family life, etc, etc. I saw some figures which said that for a professional person earning, say, £45,000 to £50,000 per annum, such a ban could cost around £200,000 in lost career prospects.
Now, before condemning those who feel that they have to continue to drive, put yourself in their position.
If you can get away with it for 6 months, and how many times have you been stopped in the last 6 months for a routine licence check, then your career is unaffected as is your ability to feed your family and pay the mortgage.
The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, so those penalised by such a grossly unfair system will tend to ignore it, the law itself will be diminished and the offence, effectively, downgraded (like canabis smoking, for example).
I'm 63 and a grandfather. I'm from the generation brought up to respect the law, but I have to say that rather than lose my business, my income and impact my pension, I would continue to drive if banned. The risks really are quite minimal so long as you take the right precautions to avoid detection.
This is not really surprising as the risk of being cuaght must be balanced against the loss of job, career, home, family life, etc, etc. I saw some figures which said that for a professional person earning, say, £45,000 to £50,000 per annum, such a ban could cost around £200,000 in lost career prospects.
Now, before condemning those who feel that they have to continue to drive, put yourself in their position.
If you can get away with it for 6 months, and how many times have you been stopped in the last 6 months for a routine licence check, then your career is unaffected as is your ability to feed your family and pay the mortgage.
The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, so those penalised by such a grossly unfair system will tend to ignore it, the law itself will be diminished and the offence, effectively, downgraded (like canabis smoking, for example).
I'm 63 and a grandfather. I'm from the generation brought up to respect the law, but I have to say that rather than lose my business, my income and impact my pension, I would continue to drive if banned. The risks really are quite minimal so long as you take the right precautions to avoid detection.
Cooperman said:
, ...put yourself in their position.
If you can get away with it for 6 months, and how many times have you been stopped in the last 6 months for a routine licence check, then your career is unaffected as is your ability to feed your family and pay the mortgage.
Bad avdice Cooperman!
How can you feed your family from prison?
Cooperman said:
The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, so those penalised by such a grossly unfair system will tend to ignore it, the law itself will be diminished and the offence, effectively, downgraded (like canabis smoking, for example).
1. This punishment is an order by a court that you will not drive because you have been warned on more than several occasions about ignoring laws. They take this seriously.
2. Whilst banned you cannot have insurance. This is part of the offence of driving whilst disqualified. They also take this seriously!
Cooperman said:
I'm 63 and a grandfather. I'm from the generation brought up to respect the law, but I have to say that rather than lose my business, my income and impact my pension, I would continue to drive if banned.
Then you would be taking a very big risk indeed. Hoping that you did not break any other law and get seen doing it (persistent speeders find it very difficult to stop
). Having to drive at 100% concentration so as to not contravene any single rule and attract attention. Hoping that no idiot would inadvertently drive into you and cause damage to your car.
Praying that you do not do the same to someone else
Cooperman said:
The risks really are quite minimal so long as you take the right precautions to avoid detection.
1. Like making sure that absolutely no one knows that you have been banned.
2. That your neighbours/family do not have an axe to grind over some trivial issue,
3. That the Pro Active Disqualified drivers units that most Roads Policing units operate are not on your case straight away.
4. That your car has not been entered on the disqual drivers data base so that should you pass through ANPR, you will remain undetected. ANPR units have audible warning systems attached to them when vehicles marked for being invovled in certain offences pass through. It is a way of highlighting more serious offences and the operator can chose the jingle much like a mobile phone ring (the last one I sat in on had the batman theme for diqual drivers. We picked up 3 in 4 hours that day
) 5. The courts send notices of every banned driver to RP depts with the details of cars the driver was caught in for the principle offence, his/her description, date of birth and address and also the length of the ban. They then go around during early hours and check to see if the principle/any other vehicle belonging to that household is moving by marking certain areas. They then come back and watch to see what is happening. I did this job for 18 months in the early 90's. We were very successful at catching disquals. Normally between 5 and 10 a week! Some more than once in a couple of days
So in answer to the intitial question, a conviction for disqual driving is likely to attract an increased ban of up to 6 months, Imprisonment for 6 months and a fine on the standard scale at level 5 or both!
Insurance offences are ALWAYS charged on top of the disqual offence!
Normally the first offence of disqual driving attracts an increased ban and a heavy fine providing the offender has gone straight down the line and admitted the offence without causing grief to the arresting officers or trying to lie and wriggle out of it. Any aggravating circumstances are likely to attract heavy punishment.
The second time you are caught for disqual driving, you will undoubtedly get a prison sentence!
Try convincing any insurance company to take you on at a reasonable premium after these offences are endorsed onto your licence
Gone, your arguments make it sound like getting caught is a significant risk. If this really is the case why are there are now more banned drivers on the roads than at any time in the past? Anything to do with the amount of trafpol replaced with cameras?
I'm not condoning driving whilst banned, but I can certainly sympathise with Coopermans reasoning. When the consequences of a few minor speeding offences cause otherwise law abiding citizens to consider doing something that could potentialy land them in jail, then it's long past time to review those laws.
I'm not condoning driving whilst banned, but I can certainly sympathise with Coopermans reasoning. When the consequences of a few minor speeding offences cause otherwise law abiding citizens to consider doing something that could potentialy land them in jail, then it's long past time to review those laws.
The risk if me losing my licence is now far greater than me having /causing an accident which is just making the law look an ass.
I would consider it, along with many many others, I would seriously consider driving an cheap uninsured un-regsisterd banger. I'm sure many more have & many do.
The laws / rules are now wrong & need changing quickly before too many people end up considering the unlawful route.
I would consider it, along with many many others, I would seriously consider driving an cheap uninsured un-regsisterd banger. I'm sure many more have & many do.
The laws / rules are now wrong & need changing quickly before too many people end up considering the unlawful route.
cptsideways said:
The risk if me losing my licence is now far greater than me having /causing an accident which is just making the law look an ass.
I would consider it, along with many many others, I would seriously consider driving an cheap uninsured un-regsisterd banger. I'm sure many more have & many do.
The laws / rules are now wrong & need changing quickly before too many people end up considering the unlawful route.
I am not trying to say that you will not get away with it.
I am just trying to bring to your attention that the chances of getting caught are a lot higher than they were even a couple of years ago.
Disqual drivers are targetted, not just through their original vehicles!
Oh, and when you are prosecuted for disqual driving, we take your fingerprints DNA and photgraph too
You would not believe the amount of information about disqual drivers that is sent in through 'Crimestoppers'. Having an old banger parked 300 yards from your address is no gaurantee you are not being watched by someone!
gone said:
Having an old banger parked 300 yards from your address is no gaurantee you are not being watched by someone!
Bugger, they have thought of that too. "I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids."
Damn sneaky these
On a serious note, I hope to hell I am never put in this position thanks to the way the robotic enforcement system works now.
I can see the temptation to risk it. Public transport is not viable in many peoples lives.
Would you let your family go destitute for driving at sensible, yet illegal speeds on four occasions over three years? Tough call.
I'm clean and have been for years, but what also worries me is I am increasingly aware of the risks to myself from uninsured and banned drivers. It's a fault in the system I'm afraid.
Love the Batman thing though, how funny is that!
gone said:
I am not trying to say that you will not get away with it.
I am just trying to bring to your attention that the chances of getting caught are a lot higher than they were even a couple of years ago.
Disqual drivers are targetted, not just through their original vehicles!
Oh, and when you are prosecuted for disqual driving, we take your fingerprints DNA and photgraph too
You would not believe the amount of information about disqual drivers that is sent in through 'Crimestoppers'. Having an old banger parked 300 yards from your address is no gaurantee you are not being watched by someone!
You might as well have posted "read 1984, by George Orwell - I know we're twenty years late but we're getting there as quick as we can."
I know two poeple are drove whilst banned, both honest, good people with families. Both would do it again, as I would if I was in a similar situation.
The chances of being stopped are very slim, it's only the plod waiting outside your house/road who have a chance of catching you.
Compared with no job, no mortgage payments etc it's a small risk.
What are they going to do in 5 years time - lock up 1000's of people ? It's a mad system and we have no obligation to comply with madness.
The chances of being stopped are very slim, it's only the plod waiting outside your house/road who have a chance of catching you.
Compared with no job, no mortgage payments etc it's a small risk.
What are they going to do in 5 years time - lock up 1000's of people ? It's a mad system and we have no obligation to comply with madness.
If the present level of persecution for minor speeding continues the way it seems to have been planned, i.e. to raise £240,000,000 per annum from the 4,000,000 drivers it is intended to catch, and this is achieved by reduction in the tolerance level to limit +5%, then the number disqualified will increase to around 50,000 per annum.
Now, if the level of active police surveillance on these disqual. drivers is to be as active as 'gone' states, I reckon around 50% of the time our police spend out of their stations will be spent doing this. So how about an increase in prison population of, maybe, 10,000 at any one time. You'll have to let a lot of burglars and muggers out to make the space.
Oh, that's all right then, as those locked up for trying to continue to earn their living by driving whilst disqual. will no longer be paying tax or N.I., their families will be on social security benefits, the burglars and muggers not locked up to make space for the drivers will continue to burgle and mug, still making no contribution to society, so all will be right with the world.
You really could not make this up, it's so crazy. S**t, you are not even going to get locked up for mugging, so long as the level of violence is 'not excessive'. But you'll lock up Mr. Average Middle-Aged Businessman for trying to keep his business, home and family life together.
With this sort of attitude it's no wonder the law and those who enforce it are so badly regarded these days.
However, from a policeman friend of mine, this is what you do if banned:
You buy a nondescript car, like an 3-year old Astra or Escort, out of the small ads, making sure it has 6 months tax on it. The previous owner can tax it if you pay him a bit extra. You give him a false name and address. You form a limited company for £125 and insure the car through that company, making another company the Company Secretary. You drive very, very carefully and only when you have to.
The other alternative is to buy a car in Southern Ireland, insure it there and bring it to England. You could also get an Irish licence if you wanted to so long as you had an address there, which is not difficult. So, for the 6 months of the ban you are, effectively, out-of-the-system.
I'm sure 'Gone' is going to tell us how the Bill will pursue us relentlessly and detect us, but in my area, North Herts/South Beds., they find it difficult to send a policemen out to your house when you get burgled. My niece's home was broken into and entered and it took the Dunstable plod 3 days to respond, so where is all this resource coming from? They can't even detect the cars with 'cloned' plates in London.
So, bluff & bluster from the police apart, the risk analysis of getting caught against maintaining your career is strongly in favour of taking, but minimising, the risk.
That's what this entire speed-camera obsession will bring our society to. I would have expected the BiB on here to be a little sympathetic - one can but hope!
Now, if the level of active police surveillance on these disqual. drivers is to be as active as 'gone' states, I reckon around 50% of the time our police spend out of their stations will be spent doing this. So how about an increase in prison population of, maybe, 10,000 at any one time. You'll have to let a lot of burglars and muggers out to make the space.
Oh, that's all right then, as those locked up for trying to continue to earn their living by driving whilst disqual. will no longer be paying tax or N.I., their families will be on social security benefits, the burglars and muggers not locked up to make space for the drivers will continue to burgle and mug, still making no contribution to society, so all will be right with the world.
You really could not make this up, it's so crazy. S**t, you are not even going to get locked up for mugging, so long as the level of violence is 'not excessive'. But you'll lock up Mr. Average Middle-Aged Businessman for trying to keep his business, home and family life together.
With this sort of attitude it's no wonder the law and those who enforce it are so badly regarded these days.
However, from a policeman friend of mine, this is what you do if banned:
You buy a nondescript car, like an 3-year old Astra or Escort, out of the small ads, making sure it has 6 months tax on it. The previous owner can tax it if you pay him a bit extra. You give him a false name and address. You form a limited company for £125 and insure the car through that company, making another company the Company Secretary. You drive very, very carefully and only when you have to.
The other alternative is to buy a car in Southern Ireland, insure it there and bring it to England. You could also get an Irish licence if you wanted to so long as you had an address there, which is not difficult. So, for the 6 months of the ban you are, effectively, out-of-the-system.
I'm sure 'Gone' is going to tell us how the Bill will pursue us relentlessly and detect us, but in my area, North Herts/South Beds., they find it difficult to send a policemen out to your house when you get burgled. My niece's home was broken into and entered and it took the Dunstable plod 3 days to respond, so where is all this resource coming from? They can't even detect the cars with 'cloned' plates in London.
So, bluff & bluster from the police apart, the risk analysis of getting caught against maintaining your career is strongly in favour of taking, but minimising, the risk.
That's what this entire speed-camera obsession will bring our society to. I would have expected the BiB on here to be a little sympathetic - one can but hope!
Disagree with you Cooperman.
Gone gives an excellent breakdown in his informative post. No way does he state that all DD's get caught but to others like you with your recommendantion to carry on driving after a ban, he highlights that there is a good chance of being caught from work/observation/intelligence going on behind the scenes. Sure some get away with it like some murderers and the majority of speeders.
So Mr Businessman get caught speeding three times in three years and is then banned. Hard cheddar he asked for it - his decision. So he carries on driving in his doctored jalopy and is caught - again his decision. Plonker.
What worries me is the Insurance aspect which is nullified through the ban. Mr Businessman mows down and severely injures you grandchild. No compo as no Insurance.
Still of the same mind?
DVD
Gone gives an excellent breakdown in his informative post. No way does he state that all DD's get caught but to others like you with your recommendantion to carry on driving after a ban, he highlights that there is a good chance of being caught from work/observation/intelligence going on behind the scenes. Sure some get away with it like some murderers and the majority of speeders.
So Mr Businessman get caught speeding three times in three years and is then banned. Hard cheddar he asked for it - his decision. So he carries on driving in his doctored jalopy and is caught - again his decision. Plonker.
What worries me is the Insurance aspect which is nullified through the ban. Mr Businessman mows down and severely injures you grandchild. No compo as no Insurance.
Still of the same mind?
DVD
What I was trying to do was to bring home to all who may be interested that the continued application of a ban for a few minor speeding offences will result in this happening to thousands of drivers, just as thousands have been caught smoking 'pot'. Now, because of the numbers involved, 'pot' has virtually been legalised, so what will happen when those thousands of disqual drivers feel that they have no option but to continue to drive?
The answer is obvious, except to those who will not see it. If the perception is that the punishment they have received for minor indiscretions does not fit the offence, then this disqual penalty will be disregarded by, literally, thousands. Society will then have to decide what merits draconian punishment like prison, with the resultant costs on the individuals and on society.
Will it be acceptable to imprison, say, the 10,000 drivers driving whilst disqual, assuming you catch them? My view is that it won't.
The answer is obvious, except to those who will not see it. If the perception is that the punishment they have received for minor indiscretions does not fit the offence, then this disqual penalty will be disregarded by, literally, thousands. Society will then have to decide what merits draconian punishment like prison, with the resultant costs on the individuals and on society.
Will it be acceptable to imprison, say, the 10,000 drivers driving whilst disqual, assuming you catch them? My view is that it won't.
There is and never will be any excuse for Driving Whilst being Disqualified, no matter how many mouths you have to feed!
Disqual Drivers are bread and butter arrests for Trafpols.
When you are banned,Police in your area are notified and you will be targeted....without doubt.
More and more people are being banned because of a variety of things...Cameras included, and with the introduction of Driving Licence checks at the roadside (which all Trafpols will do) then the chances are high that you will be caught.
I put Disqual Drivers in the same basket as Drink Drivers......people who have no regard for the Law and think that they know better.
Disqual Drivers are bread and butter arrests for Trafpols.
When you are banned,Police in your area are notified and you will be targeted....without doubt.
More and more people are being banned because of a variety of things...Cameras included, and with the introduction of Driving Licence checks at the roadside (which all Trafpols will do) then the chances are high that you will be caught.
I put Disqual Drivers in the same basket as Drink Drivers......people who have no regard for the Law and think that they know better.
TonyRec is spot on. By chance, today I charged a young man, 20 years old, with Disqual Drive & No Insurance. He was sentenced in January 2004 for 6 counts of Disqual plus related driving offences, and had previous Dangerous Drive, Disqual & document offences to his name. Suffice to say I refused him bail and he was before Basingstoke Mags this afternoon. He arrived at Reading Young Offenders Institute about an hour ago, where he is likely to spend about the next 3 or 4 months.
Road Polcing Units DO actively target disquals. They will sit outside houses, do drive-bys to see what cars come and go and when. The chances of getting caught are pretty high, esp. if you tick a few certain boxes, e.g. need car for work.
Make no mistake, make a habit of driving whilst disqualified and you are very likely to end up behind bars.
Road Polcing Units DO actively target disquals. They will sit outside houses, do drive-bys to see what cars come and go and when. The chances of getting caught are pretty high, esp. if you tick a few certain boxes, e.g. need car for work.
Make no mistake, make a habit of driving whilst disqualified and you are very likely to end up behind bars.
What if said banned person tried to bypass the system by buying a motorbike? Would the lack of front plate make it harder for on road traf-pol to detect them?
IMO,
1) the law that dictates the legal maximum speed limit without prosecution is (usually) wrong,
2) the penalty for driving above limit (1) is unjustified,
3) the punishment for driving too soon after committing (1) and (2) is absolutely unreasonable.
......triple whammy!
Think about it, the banned person cannot be a dangerous driver otherwise they should have been done for dangerous driving. Do they even have to retake the test? No! Therefore, that person is not a danger, so why ban them?
The law is an ass!
IMO,
1) the law that dictates the legal maximum speed limit without prosecution is (usually) wrong,
2) the penalty for driving above limit (1) is unjustified,
3) the punishment for driving too soon after committing (1) and (2) is absolutely unreasonable.
......triple whammy!
Think about it, the banned person cannot be a dangerous driver otherwise they should have been done for dangerous driving. Do they even have to retake the test? No! Therefore, that person is not a danger, so why ban them?
The law is an ass!
said:Absolute Bollox - What you meant to say is Hard Cheddar, he drives in the ridiculous regime UK has now become. Maybe he shares some guilt for not being politically active, torching the Scumeras etc
So Mr Businessman get caught speeding three times in three years and is then banned. Hard cheddar he asked for it - his decision.
[/quote] What worries me is the Insurance aspect which is nullified through the ban. Mr Businessman mows down and severely injures you grandchild. No compo as no Insurance. [/quote] Ehhh ? whats the correlation ? The risk is small. You buy into this rubbish ?
[/quote] Still of the same mind [/quote] You bet !!!
When your back's against the wall as many of us are thats the way it is !!! Blame the political stupidity that created this crazy situtation.
And the Stasi that try to keep tabs on these resourceful unfortunates are generally going to miss. These two groups are separated by a huge cultural gulf.
supraman2954 said:
What if said banned person tried to bypass the system by buying a motorbike?
I'd never thought of that..... if i get banned, i'll buy a bike and ride that, which i never actually got a round to getting a licence for any way...
whats the worst offence
driving whilst banned
or
driving a vehicle for which you have no licence and whilsts disqualified from another class of vehicle ?
DVD, how can you say it's hard cheese ?
They are lowering the speed limits to abnormally low speeds - 40 mph for a dual carriageway that used to be 60 and has no junctions, schoole etc - the traffic flows at a steady 55mph or so in as much safety as can reasonably be expected.
Why is it right that somebody should loose their licence for driving perfectly safely, just because some local council/plod decide that 40 mph is a better speed limit to apply to the road ? That's what it amounts to, absolutely noting to do with safety.
If there are accident black spots that need lower speeds then make that obvious - why shold somebody loose their license because plod thinks it's fun to hide in the hedge and pick off motorists that happen to be doing 7mph over the 60mph limit ? (A507, Bedfordshire)
It doesn't make sense . . . it's like being fined for thinking about committing a crime, the crime of killing somebody through dangerous driving (for example) hasn't been committed - all a driver has done is drive above the posted speed limit - this does not in any way make them dangerous and there is no crime, so why sush a harsh punishment.
It's mad, absolute madness and the people who support it are as nutty as the politicos/accountants who dream it up.
Originally (or even latterly, in the 80's and early 90's) the points/ban thing was a good idea - if you got stopped four times by plod for driving in a manner which gave them good reason to stop you and give you points then you probably deserved to be banned.
Nowadays with cameras it's not the same - plod never used to stop you for doing 57mph on a dual carriageway or even a single carriageway unless you drove past them with your arse hanging out of the window or you were weaving all over the road. They had better things to do and they know that a few mph over the limit doesn't matter. With cameras there's no such discretion and the original system is being abused by the people who are claiming to make the roads safer.
Bollox to the lot of them. They are kiling and maiming people.
Driving whilst under a ban for DD or some other anti-social behaviour is silly, you should do the ban and learn from it.
Driving under a ban obtained by driving at 7mph over the 50mph limit on four separate occasions on good, dry roads in clear weather whilst driving perfectly safely with a clear head is what most people will end up doing. Who's going to give up their job because four grey gatso's happen to take a picture of your car ?
They are lowering the speed limits to abnormally low speeds - 40 mph for a dual carriageway that used to be 60 and has no junctions, schoole etc - the traffic flows at a steady 55mph or so in as much safety as can reasonably be expected.
Why is it right that somebody should loose their licence for driving perfectly safely, just because some local council/plod decide that 40 mph is a better speed limit to apply to the road ? That's what it amounts to, absolutely noting to do with safety.
If there are accident black spots that need lower speeds then make that obvious - why shold somebody loose their license because plod thinks it's fun to hide in the hedge and pick off motorists that happen to be doing 7mph over the 60mph limit ? (A507, Bedfordshire)
It doesn't make sense . . . it's like being fined for thinking about committing a crime, the crime of killing somebody through dangerous driving (for example) hasn't been committed - all a driver has done is drive above the posted speed limit - this does not in any way make them dangerous and there is no crime, so why sush a harsh punishment.
It's mad, absolute madness and the people who support it are as nutty as the politicos/accountants who dream it up.
Originally (or even latterly, in the 80's and early 90's) the points/ban thing was a good idea - if you got stopped four times by plod for driving in a manner which gave them good reason to stop you and give you points then you probably deserved to be banned.
Nowadays with cameras it's not the same - plod never used to stop you for doing 57mph on a dual carriageway or even a single carriageway unless you drove past them with your arse hanging out of the window or you were weaving all over the road. They had better things to do and they know that a few mph over the limit doesn't matter. With cameras there's no such discretion and the original system is being abused by the people who are claiming to make the roads safer.
Bollox to the lot of them. They are kiling and maiming people.
Driving whilst under a ban for DD or some other anti-social behaviour is silly, you should do the ban and learn from it.
Driving under a ban obtained by driving at 7mph over the 50mph limit on four separate occasions on good, dry roads in clear weather whilst driving perfectly safely with a clear head is what most people will end up doing. Who's going to give up their job because four grey gatso's happen to take a picture of your car ?
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