Electrics advice needed before conversation with BC
Discussion
unsure if i have a problem here or not. I've got two things going on, firstly a mortgage retention for damp, roof and electrics and secondly a building control notice.
We decided when having the roof re-tiled to have installed velux windows, this roof is over the kitchen. We went down the route of building note as the re-tile makes part of the mortgage retention.
Other work was damp meaning 2.5 meter square concrete floor needed re-laying and removal of 1 meter of plater to three walls. as we were removing ceiling and other work we removed the rest of the plaster and insulated (walls are solid) and re-plastered.
Building note was only for roof but bc inspector wants to come back when the kitchen was re-installed.. he was also asking questions about extraction and other bits about the kitchen install so i think he's going to be ensuring all work in there is done right. this isnt really a problem to me as i've spoken with them all along and ensured all work is done properly to the letter.
Last part of the retention was electrics. list as follows:
no rcd protection
main tails too small
main earth too small
no bonding to water
only socket in kitchen, spur off another socket
no switches on sockets
I'm assuming that for the retention to be released the mortgage surveyor will be looking for all paperwork to be correct.
When i got the paperwork from BC they included the following statement:
"Part P guidance notes
1. all electrical work required to meet the requirements of part p - must be designed and installed by a person competent to do so
2. prior to a completion certificate being issued, the council must be satisfied that an appropriate electrical installation certificate in accordance with BS 7671 has been issued for the work, and that it has been signed by a person competent to do so
3. where work is carried out by a DIY householder or an electrical contractor who is not qualified to inspect and test, the local authority will require a detailed design prior to commencement of works"
I had a recommended (by two friends) electrician come in and install a 17th edition consumer unit, upgrade tails and earth bond, install a new ring for kitchen and a spur for the cooker.
I'm aware some work is notifiable and i believe in my case thats the CU and the kitchen work. What i dont know is what that entails and by who. I had a conversation with the electrician prior to works and he said he wouldnt normally notify unless it was a full re-wire. I told him at that time that i needed it notifying and he agreed to do so.
Installation happened and i was left with an invoice, and a "Ethos survey schedule and test report" "BS 7671 2001" this is signed and dated by the electrician and includes his part P number. it details he installed CU, bond and new ring/spur including the test results of each circuit off the unit.
I'm trying to get all my paperwork ready for BC sign off and for the mortgage surveyor and i called the electrician to check he's notified BC to be told he hasnt and doesnt normally.
I've recently had a boiler and central heating installed. I recieved shortly after that a letter from BC to say they'd been notified, i didnt get involved in this at all, it was all done by the plumber.
Given the above, before i call BC and 'put my foot in it' what should i be expecting and what should i be doing. Can i do the notifying, does the electrician need to do anything, do i have the necissary paperwork and am i likely to have any problems?
We decided when having the roof re-tiled to have installed velux windows, this roof is over the kitchen. We went down the route of building note as the re-tile makes part of the mortgage retention.
Other work was damp meaning 2.5 meter square concrete floor needed re-laying and removal of 1 meter of plater to three walls. as we were removing ceiling and other work we removed the rest of the plaster and insulated (walls are solid) and re-plastered.
Building note was only for roof but bc inspector wants to come back when the kitchen was re-installed.. he was also asking questions about extraction and other bits about the kitchen install so i think he's going to be ensuring all work in there is done right. this isnt really a problem to me as i've spoken with them all along and ensured all work is done properly to the letter.
Last part of the retention was electrics. list as follows:
no rcd protection
main tails too small
main earth too small
no bonding to water
only socket in kitchen, spur off another socket
no switches on sockets
I'm assuming that for the retention to be released the mortgage surveyor will be looking for all paperwork to be correct.
When i got the paperwork from BC they included the following statement:
"Part P guidance notes
1. all electrical work required to meet the requirements of part p - must be designed and installed by a person competent to do so
2. prior to a completion certificate being issued, the council must be satisfied that an appropriate electrical installation certificate in accordance with BS 7671 has been issued for the work, and that it has been signed by a person competent to do so
3. where work is carried out by a DIY householder or an electrical contractor who is not qualified to inspect and test, the local authority will require a detailed design prior to commencement of works"
I had a recommended (by two friends) electrician come in and install a 17th edition consumer unit, upgrade tails and earth bond, install a new ring for kitchen and a spur for the cooker.
I'm aware some work is notifiable and i believe in my case thats the CU and the kitchen work. What i dont know is what that entails and by who. I had a conversation with the electrician prior to works and he said he wouldnt normally notify unless it was a full re-wire. I told him at that time that i needed it notifying and he agreed to do so.
Installation happened and i was left with an invoice, and a "Ethos survey schedule and test report" "BS 7671 2001" this is signed and dated by the electrician and includes his part P number. it details he installed CU, bond and new ring/spur including the test results of each circuit off the unit.
I'm trying to get all my paperwork ready for BC sign off and for the mortgage surveyor and i called the electrician to check he's notified BC to be told he hasnt and doesnt normally.
I've recently had a boiler and central heating installed. I recieved shortly after that a letter from BC to say they'd been notified, i didnt get involved in this at all, it was all done by the plumber.
Given the above, before i call BC and 'put my foot in it' what should i be expecting and what should i be doing. Can i do the notifying, does the electrician need to do anything, do i have the necissary paperwork and am i likely to have any problems?
Approved Document P1 states the following
"Certification of notifiable work
a. Where the installer is registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme
1.18 Installers registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme are qualified to complete BS 7671 installation certificates and should do so in respect of every job they undertake. A copy of the certificate should always be given to the person ordering the electrical installation work.
1.19 Where Installers registered with Part P competent person self-certification scheme, a Building Regulations compliance certificate must be issued to the occupant either by the installer or the installer's registration body within 30 days of the work being completed. The relevant building control body should also receive a copy of the information on the certificate within 30 days.
1.20 The Regulations call for the Building Regulations compliance certificate to be issued to the occupier. However, in the case of rented properties, the certificate may be sent to the person ordering the work with a copy sent also to the occupant."
Taken from[url]
http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm...
[/URL]
You may well have some issues by the sound of it
"Certification of notifiable work
a. Where the installer is registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme
1.18 Installers registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme are qualified to complete BS 7671 installation certificates and should do so in respect of every job they undertake. A copy of the certificate should always be given to the person ordering the electrical installation work.
1.19 Where Installers registered with Part P competent person self-certification scheme, a Building Regulations compliance certificate must be issued to the occupant either by the installer or the installer's registration body within 30 days of the work being completed. The relevant building control body should also receive a copy of the information on the certificate within 30 days.
1.20 The Regulations call for the Building Regulations compliance certificate to be issued to the occupier. However, in the case of rented properties, the certificate may be sent to the person ordering the work with a copy sent also to the occupant."
Taken from[url]
http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm...
[/URL]
You may well have some issues by the sound of it
chr15b said:
Last part of the retention was electrics. list as follows:
no rcd protection
main tails too small
main earth too small
no bonding to water
only socket in kitchen, spur off another socket
no switches on sockets
No RCD protection. - Depends on what work was carried out.no rcd protection
main tails too small
main earth too small
no bonding to water
only socket in kitchen, spur off another socket
no switches on sockets
Main tails too small - Not the responsibility of the electrician/homeowner.
Main earth too small - well, the adiabatic equation should be used to calculate. This also depends on the supply type.
No bonding to water. - Plastic main incomming water pipe does not require it, although if the plumbing inside is all metal, then it is recommended.
only socket in kitchen, spur off another socket - perfectly acceptable, providing it is installed correctly.
No switches on sockets. - No reg to stipulate ANY sockets mist have switches.
If your building inspector has noted all the above, i suggest you ask him to provide reg numbers to back it up.
As with most BCO's, since part p was introduced, they all went on a days course, and now think they know everything.
f
king idiots.I looooooooooove making them eat humble pie.
Sorry, work in that list came from an electrical survey (periodic inspection report?) insisted by my mortgage companies valuer. the wording is something like, if all work under point f is completed, installation will comply with BS(something)
Mortgage company insisted on the work.
at the same time i took the oportunity to install new consumer unit (old one was very very old) and have installed new ring to kitchen to give about 10 plug sockets plus a spur from consumer unit to provide a cooker point.
old kitchen was old, gas oven with no ignition, two double base units with sink over and a single spur'd socket - that was it.
apart from the quoted text in my original post, BC inspector has not noted anything at all, building note is for installation of velux windows and re-tile only, though he said next stage is sign off and thats at the stage the kitchen is installed so might become an issue at that stage i dont know (note velux windows are above kitchen)
Mortgage company insisted on the work.
at the same time i took the oportunity to install new consumer unit (old one was very very old) and have installed new ring to kitchen to give about 10 plug sockets plus a spur from consumer unit to provide a cooker point.
old kitchen was old, gas oven with no ignition, two double base units with sink over and a single spur'd socket - that was it.
apart from the quoted text in my original post, BC inspector has not noted anything at all, building note is for installation of velux windows and re-tile only, though he said next stage is sign off and thats at the stage the kitchen is installed so might become an issue at that stage i dont know (note velux windows are above kitchen)
Edited by chr15b on Monday 27th June 23:38
Edited by chr15b on Monday 27th June 23:40
chr15b said:
I'm aware some work is notifiable and i believe in my case thats the CU and the kitchen work. What i dont know is what that entails and by who. I had a conversation with the electrician prior to works and he said he wouldnt normally notify unless it was a full re-wire. I told him at that time that i needed it notifying and he agreed to do so.
Notifiable works include:- Any works in a 'special location' (kitchen, bathroom, outdoors)
- New circuits
- Central heating controls wiring
- Consumer unit replacements
- Extra low voltage installations
The spark is either clueless or deliberately ignoring the building regs - my money's on the latter.
When were the works done?
whoops!
Looks like you need to talk nicely to your LABC, pay the fee, and get them to sign it off.
Cheap never pays off im afraid.
Next time use this..
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/search.asp
Although that doesnt mean they will be a good.
Good luck. I think you may need it.
Looks like you need to talk nicely to your LABC, pay the fee, and get them to sign it off.
Cheap never pays off im afraid.
Next time use this..
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/search.asp
Although that doesnt mean they will be a good.
Good luck. I think you may need it.
jason s4 said:
whoops!
Looks like you need to talk nicely to your LABC, pay the fee, and get them to sign it off.
Cheap never pays off im afraid.
Next time use this..
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/search.asp
Although that doesnt mean they will be a good.
Good luck. I think you may need it.
tbh he wasnt that cheap, well within any other quotes i'd had but he was recommended as a friend of two friends. Looks like you need to talk nicely to your LABC, pay the fee, and get them to sign it off.
Cheap never pays off im afraid.
Next time use this..
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/search.asp
Although that doesnt mean they will be a good.
Good luck. I think you may need it.
I put too much weight on recommendations....
Just give the test certificate to the building control chap and you have met no 2 in their list of requirements, Im not part P as I don't do domestic work but if I do a job on the side for somebody and building control are involved, I just test and inspect and fill out an electrical installation certificate and give it to the bc man.
I have done dozens of extensions, garage/attic conversions and haven't had a single problem, and the bc man has happily signed them off, remember building control already know about the work/have been notified they just need the test sheets to complete the process, and as you have already paid the bc fee, the onus is on them to test the installation if they aren't happy with the paperwork you provide.(which they will never do)
I have done dozens of extensions, garage/attic conversions and haven't had a single problem, and the bc man has happily signed them off, remember building control already know about the work/have been notified they just need the test sheets to complete the process, and as you have already paid the bc fee, the onus is on them to test the installation if they aren't happy with the paperwork you provide.(which they will never do)
jason s4 said:
That may be all well and good, but, at the end of the day, the decision is with LABC, and it could be that they dont have the facility to get it tested.
Not all LABC's are the same, and not all will accept this.
If the installer is not deemed to be qualified to test the installation and the LABC is not able to test it themselves, they may contract it out to a specialist. This must be done at the LABC's expense. Not all LABC's are the same, and not all will accept this.
What may potentially be a problem with getting the LABC's approval is if they were not informed before the works started. If this is the case (I'm guessing the wiring is all plastered in by now), the building inspector will not be able to check the cables follow permitted routes etc.
Approved Document Part P said:
b. Where the installer is not registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme but qualified to complete BS 7671 installation certificates
1.21 Where notifiable electrical installer work is carried out by a person not registered with a Part P competent person self-certification the work should be notified to a building control body (the local authority or an approved inspector) before work starts. Where the work is necessary because of an emergency the building control body should be notified as soon as possible. The building control body becomes responsible for making sure the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements of the Building Regulations.
1.22 Where installers are qualified to carry out inspection and testing and completing the appropriate BS 7671 installation certificate, they should do so. A copy of the certificate should then be given to the building control body. The building control body will take this certificate into account in deciding what further action (if any) needs to be taken to make sure that the work is safe and complies fully with all relevant requirements. Building control bodies may ask for evidence that installers are qualified in this case.
1.23 Where the building control body decides that the work is safe and meets all building regulation requirements it will issue a building regulation completion certificate (the local authority) on request or a final certificate (an approved inspector).
c. Where installers are not qualified to complete BS 7671 completion certificates
1.24 Where such installers (who may be contractors or DIYers) carry out notifiable electrical work, the building control body must be notified before the work starts. Where the work is necessary because of an emergency the building control body should be notified as soon as possible. The building control body then becomes responsible for making sure that the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements in the Building Regulations.
1.25 The amount of inspection and testing needed is for the building control body to decide, based on the nature and extent of the electrical work. For relatively simple notifiable jobs, such as adding a socket-outlet to a kitchen circuit, the inspection and testing requirements will be minimal. For a house re-wire, a full set of inspections and tests may need to be carried out.
1.26 The building control body may choose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body which will then carry out the work on its behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders’ expense.
1.21 Where notifiable electrical installer work is carried out by a person not registered with a Part P competent person self-certification the work should be notified to a building control body (the local authority or an approved inspector) before work starts. Where the work is necessary because of an emergency the building control body should be notified as soon as possible. The building control body becomes responsible for making sure the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements of the Building Regulations.
1.22 Where installers are qualified to carry out inspection and testing and completing the appropriate BS 7671 installation certificate, they should do so. A copy of the certificate should then be given to the building control body. The building control body will take this certificate into account in deciding what further action (if any) needs to be taken to make sure that the work is safe and complies fully with all relevant requirements. Building control bodies may ask for evidence that installers are qualified in this case.
1.23 Where the building control body decides that the work is safe and meets all building regulation requirements it will issue a building regulation completion certificate (the local authority) on request or a final certificate (an approved inspector).
c. Where installers are not qualified to complete BS 7671 completion certificates
1.24 Where such installers (who may be contractors or DIYers) carry out notifiable electrical work, the building control body must be notified before the work starts. Where the work is necessary because of an emergency the building control body should be notified as soon as possible. The building control body then becomes responsible for making sure that the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements in the Building Regulations.
1.25 The amount of inspection and testing needed is for the building control body to decide, based on the nature and extent of the electrical work. For relatively simple notifiable jobs, such as adding a socket-outlet to a kitchen circuit, the inspection and testing requirements will be minimal. For a house re-wire, a full set of inspections and tests may need to be carried out.
1.26 The building control body may choose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body which will then carry out the work on its behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders’ expense.
What I don't understand is, the electrician showed me a certificate showing training under part p for installation, testing and other things.. This had a part p number on it yet he appears not to be a member of any scheme or body allowing self certification of work.
I naively thought the part p number was kind of like his membership number to that.
Turns out not, so I'm now confused what this number actually represents to me as the customer.
I naively thought the part p number was kind of like his membership number to that.
Turns out not, so I'm now confused what this number actually represents to me as the customer.
chr15b said:
What I don't understand is, the electrician showed me a certificate showing training under part p for installation, testing and other things.. This had a part p number on it yet he appears not to be a member of any scheme or body allowing self certification of work.
I naively thought the part p number was kind of like his membership number to that.
Turns out not, so I'm now confused what this number actually represents to me as the customer.
Do you have the number on any printed correspondence, such as quotes or invoices? Does he have the logo of any approved body on his business cards or his van?I naively thought the part p number was kind of like his membership number to that.
Turns out not, so I'm now confused what this number actually represents to me as the customer.
It may be possible that he was a member and has left the scheme (either by his own choice or the scheme's), or he is just telling porkies. If so, this is very serious and people have been known to do time for falsely claiming to be a member of a trade association.
Another possibility is that he has done a 'part P course' and that is his certificate number. One of my many gripes with part P is that there have been a lot of training bodies cashing in by offering 'part P' courses. Accreditation under part P is not a qualification - it is simply a case of joining an approved scheme (providing you satisfy their entry requirements). Many of these training providers simply give you a crash course which prepares you for joining a scheme but does not actually include the membership costs. These courses are aimed at people who work in trades where electrics is not their main activity but who often have to do minor electrical works as part of it (kitchen fitters, conservatory installers etc.) and to the gullible pillocks who believe the advert s in the jobs pages saying they can be a qualified electrician in 8 weeks.
Did you employ the alleged electrician direct or was he a subbie to your builder? If you employed him direct, I would be banging on his door demanding my money back.
Ganglandboss said:
What may potentially be a problem with getting the LABC's approval is if they were not informed before the works started. If this is the case (I'm guessing the wiring is all plastered in by now), the building inspector will not be able to check the cables follow permitted routes etc.
There was somebody on another car forum recently who had exactly this problem, IIRC due to some family dispute with the electrican. BC said they couldn't do it and neither would any other electrician he asked. In the end he did get the original guy to certify it.It strikes me as odd that electricians will do this work now without being able to certify - they must know that they're going to get found out.
chr15b said:
I believe you are correct with your assumption, I have a faxed copy of his 'part p' which is the result of a course
I employed directly
I believe you have three ways in dealing with this. The first thing to do is give him the opportunity to put it right. The trouble he is going to have is that he won't be able to do it himself - he cannot self certify and he may not want to get into a discussion with building control if he realises they may be aware of his shenanigans. He may have to answer awkward questions like "Why did you not notify us before you started work". He could try worming out of it by claiming you told him you had notified BC before he started work. I employed directly
Another option is to spill the beans to building control. Show them your invoice and the copy of what you believed to be his part P documentation. They may be happy to get it tested by a proper spark and sign it off. There is a possibility they may escalate the matter with a view to prosecuting him and/or forcing him to cease and desist. You may have to fork out for any additional works and you would also have to be happy to cooperate with any investigation by trading standards.
The last option is to write it off and have the works re-done by a spark who can self-certify.
Deva Link said:
Ganglandboss said:
What may potentially be a problem with getting the LABC's approval is if they were not informed before the works started. If this is the case (I'm guessing the wiring is all plastered in by now), the building inspector will not be able to check the cables follow permitted routes etc.
There was somebody on another car forum recently who had exactly this problem, IIRC due to some family dispute with the electrican. BC said they couldn't do it and neither would any other electrician he asked. In the end he did get the original guy to certify it.It strikes me as odd that electricians will do this work now without being able to certify - they must know that they're going to get found out.
There are ways of dodging part P on certain jobs but I cannot see how anybody can operate a contracting business without being a member of a trade association that can provide its members with the ability to self-certify.
Building control are aware of the situation and are being extremely supportive, they have detailed the options as they see them.
I suspect I will be going down the last route - having the work re-done by a recognised electrician. Some plastering work has been completed where the cabling is, but luckily it's not all complete and will mean only a little work to make good.
I suspect I will be going down the last route - having the work re-done by a recognised electrician. Some plastering work has been completed where the cabling is, but luckily it's not all complete and will mean only a little work to make good.
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