dealer honesty
Discussion
Following on from the recent
Tamora GX53AXV, TVR Mads, anyone viewed/thoughts ?
post, I thought my view was maybe worth a separate discussion.
My comment is made with respect and it clearly only reflects my own personal opinion.
This was prompted by the comment made by the dealer about the health of these car's engines in this thread and indeed many other dealers up and down the country everyday:
I hope and trust that the dealer in question is honest to explain the following as I'm sure many are not:
The straight 6 engine falls into 1 of 2 categories:
1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
It is generally accepted that most (yes there have been a small handful of exceptions) that an original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 will need a rebuild at circa 10k miles to 40k miles.
This WILL cost between £2 and 10k
I haven't heard more than a few cases where this is not the case.
So a dealer (or any seller) claiming that their car's engine that hasn't be rebuild will be sound for the indefinite future is either plain dishonest and unethical or misinformed (unlikely).
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
It is possible to remain commercial and saleslike (as every good sales person needs to be) AND honest. The 2 are not mutually exclusive
Bespoke Performance are a good example, they will be quite open and honest about the likely rebuild scenario on any original S6 (just ask Martin or Mark), and they still sell plenty.
A strong post I realise, but I think it should be said.
Tamora GX53AXV, TVR Mads, anyone viewed/thoughts ?
post, I thought my view was maybe worth a separate discussion.
My comment is made with respect and it clearly only reflects my own personal opinion.
This was prompted by the comment made by the dealer about the health of these car's engines in this thread and indeed many other dealers up and down the country everyday:
I hope and trust that the dealer in question is honest to explain the following as I'm sure many are not:
The straight 6 engine falls into 1 of 2 categories:
1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
It is generally accepted that most (yes there have been a small handful of exceptions) that an original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 will need a rebuild at circa 10k miles to 40k miles.
This WILL cost between £2 and 10k
I haven't heard more than a few cases where this is not the case.
So a dealer (or any seller) claiming that their car's engine that hasn't be rebuild will be sound for the indefinite future is either plain dishonest and unethical or misinformed (unlikely).
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
It is possible to remain commercial and saleslike (as every good sales person needs to be) AND honest. The 2 are not mutually exclusive
Bespoke Performance are a good example, they will be quite open and honest about the likely rebuild scenario on any original S6 (just ask Martin or Mark), and they still sell plenty.
A strong post I realise, but I think it should be said.
Edited by lawtoni on Wednesday 29th June 14:01
lawtoni said:
Following on from the recent
Tamora GX53AXV, TVR Mads, anyone viewed/thoughts ?
post, I thought my view was maybe worth a separate discussion.
My comment is made with respect and it clearly only reflects my own personal opinion.
This was prompted by the comment made by the dealer about the health of these car's engines in this thread and indeed many other dealers up and down the country everyday:
I hope and trust that the dealer in question is honest to explain the following as I'm sure many are not:
The straight 6 engine falls into 1 of 2 categories:
1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
It is generally accepted that most (yes there have been a small handful of exceptions) that an original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 will need a rebuild at circa 10k miles to 40k miles.
This WILL cost between £2 and 10k
I haven't heard more than a few cases where this is not the case.
So a dealer (or any seller) claiming that their car's engine that hasn't be rebuild will be sound for the indefinite future is either plain dishonest and unethical or misinformed (unlikely).
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
It is possible to remain commercial and saleslike (as every good sales person needs to be) AND honest. The 2 are not mutually exclusive
Bespoke Performance are a good example, they will be quite open and honest about the likely rebuild scenario on any original S6 (just ask Martine or Mark), and they still sell plenty.
A strong post I realise, but I think it should be said.
I sort of agree with what you are saying but anyone who is looking to buy a speed6 (or any other car) should go into the purchase with their eyes open wide and an understanding of what *may* go wrong. Tamora GX53AXV, TVR Mads, anyone viewed/thoughts ?
post, I thought my view was maybe worth a separate discussion.
My comment is made with respect and it clearly only reflects my own personal opinion.
This was prompted by the comment made by the dealer about the health of these car's engines in this thread and indeed many other dealers up and down the country everyday:
I hope and trust that the dealer in question is honest to explain the following as I'm sure many are not:
The straight 6 engine falls into 1 of 2 categories:
1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
It is generally accepted that most (yes there have been a small handful of exceptions) that an original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 will need a rebuild at circa 10k miles to 40k miles.
This WILL cost between £2 and 10k
I haven't heard more than a few cases where this is not the case.
So a dealer (or any seller) claiming that their car's engine that hasn't be rebuild will be sound for the indefinite future is either plain dishonest and unethical or misinformed (unlikely).
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
It is possible to remain commercial and saleslike (as every good sales person needs to be) AND honest. The 2 are not mutually exclusive
Bespoke Performance are a good example, they will be quite open and honest about the likely rebuild scenario on any original S6 (just ask Martine or Mark), and they still sell plenty.
A strong post I realise, but I think it should be said.
There have been many documented cases (on this site) of new or nearly new Porsche engines going kaput but you wont find many Porsche dealers acknowledging this fact either.
I am not sure if it's the dealers responsibility to say anything, it should be up to the purchaser to do the negotiation.
lawtoni,
Are you reading more into the TVR Mads post than was actually said ?
They said the engine was in good health, they didn't say it would remain that way or that a rebuild wouldn't be required at some point.
At what point should a dealer warn about possible rebuild issues ?
Should they wait until asked about engine or general reliability or just warn customers anyway ?
Did Bespoke Performance warn of rebuild issues without prompting or in response to specific questions ?
I've not bought from them but have spoken to them about a couple of cars but never been warned about engine issues.
Maybe they would've warned me if discussions had gone further ?
Don't forget there is a difference between a quick post on a TVR forum where 99.9999% of people know about engine reliability and talking to a potential buyer face to face.
Mads appear to have a good reputation and I've not heard anything which would stop me dealing with them, unfortunately I can't say the same about all dealers.
Are you reading more into the TVR Mads post than was actually said ?
They said the engine was in good health, they didn't say it would remain that way or that a rebuild wouldn't be required at some point.
At what point should a dealer warn about possible rebuild issues ?
Should they wait until asked about engine or general reliability or just warn customers anyway ?
Did Bespoke Performance warn of rebuild issues without prompting or in response to specific questions ?
I've not bought from them but have spoken to them about a couple of cars but never been warned about engine issues.
Maybe they would've warned me if discussions had gone further ?
Don't forget there is a difference between a quick post on a TVR forum where 99.9999% of people know about engine reliability and talking to a potential buyer face to face.
Mads appear to have a good reputation and I've not heard anything which would stop me dealing with them, unfortunately I can't say the same about all dealers.
lawtoni said:
So a dealer (or any seller) claiming that their car's engine that hasn't be rebuild will be sound for the indefinite future is either plain dishonest and unethical or misinformed (unlikely).
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
Nobody can say with any certainty how long an early S6 will last but i would be inclined to agree with the garage or owner. If the engine has been looked after and has done more miles than average who's to say it isn't sound? how is a re-build inevitable? has every single S6 had a re-build or due to have one in the future?Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
As posted above, you would be stupid to go in to S6 ownership with eyes wide shut, most owners do some research and are fully aware of the pitfalls of ownership. It's hardly a big secret is it, as soon as you mention TVR to any non-convert all you get is piss taking about chocolate engines and how a mate of a cousin of a brother of his mate had one once and it was always breaking down.
Not sure I agree with you.
Sellers (of any type) cannot sell on the premiss of what MAY happen to the car in 1,2,5,10 years time. What they can be is clear about the history, for example if the car had been run regularly, had a full service history with no rebuild yet etc. because there is a 3rd category, those "magic engines" that run on for years. I think if you look across the full S6 car range you will find a good number now on 30K-ish or higher with the original engines. I think I saw a thread on the tuscan section of people's mileage on original engine. So dealers that claim the engine is sound thus far and shows no sign of failure in the near future (due to a full service report for example) would be honest and ethical wouldn't they? In fact the value that some dealers add is with a warranty to cover such issue.
Now its true that S6 had varying levels of life (including mine) but unfortunately its a risk every buyer takes and I'm sure you can find all the horror stories you like about failed porker/BMW/Audi/Ford/Citroen/any engines if you look?
maybe there is a survey to be had there, miles done on S6 before rebuild?
just my 2p.
j.
Sellers (of any type) cannot sell on the premiss of what MAY happen to the car in 1,2,5,10 years time. What they can be is clear about the history, for example if the car had been run regularly, had a full service history with no rebuild yet etc. because there is a 3rd category, those "magic engines" that run on for years. I think if you look across the full S6 car range you will find a good number now on 30K-ish or higher with the original engines. I think I saw a thread on the tuscan section of people's mileage on original engine. So dealers that claim the engine is sound thus far and shows no sign of failure in the near future (due to a full service report for example) would be honest and ethical wouldn't they? In fact the value that some dealers add is with a warranty to cover such issue.
Now its true that S6 had varying levels of life (including mine) but unfortunately its a risk every buyer takes and I'm sure you can find all the horror stories you like about failed porker/BMW/Audi/Ford/Citroen/any engines if you look?
maybe there is a survey to be had there, miles done on S6 before rebuild?
just my 2p.
j.
paul1962, you make a good point
(I was very careful in the wording of my post- so first of all for absolute clarity, it was not claiming that TVR Mads were withholding vital information about rebuilds, as many dealers do, I just stated that i hope that they do not).
However,
There need to be a balance between not disuading a buyer and being honest.
Yes a buyer should educated themselves, but it is my view that the rebuild and associated cost is such a massive issue, that it falls into the category of something which must be disclosed by the dealer.
In my case bespoke performance did openly disclose the rebuild liklihood, and they not only came across as reasonable ethical people (ie the kind I would like to give my money to) but also gave them more gravitas and trustworthiness which was of overall benefit to them.
(I was very careful in the wording of my post- so first of all for absolute clarity, it was not claiming that TVR Mads were withholding vital information about rebuilds, as many dealers do, I just stated that i hope that they do not).
However,
There need to be a balance between not disuading a buyer and being honest.
Yes a buyer should educated themselves, but it is my view that the rebuild and associated cost is such a massive issue, that it falls into the category of something which must be disclosed by the dealer.
In my case bespoke performance did openly disclose the rebuild liklihood, and they not only came across as reasonable ethical people (ie the kind I would like to give my money to) but also gave them more gravitas and trustworthiness which was of overall benefit to them.
The beauty of internet forums and Pistonheads in particular is that prospective owners can research their car of choice and ask specific questions and receive hopefully open and honest answers. Unfortunately some dealers, and probably in all walks of life where there is a chance of turning a profit, many will not be so straight with you - wrong of course but a fact of life. This puts the onus on the individual to have educated himself to seperate the b
hit from the blarney to a greater degree, which it seems you have (although I haven't read your other thread).
The bottom line is that every S6 engine will need a some sort of engine work at some stage, the same as every other car engine over probably a varying degree of time. Armed with this knowledge you know you can then make the assessment based on age, mileage, service history speaking to the servicing garage etc with at least as much accuracy as the garage you're buying from.
There is a no naming and shaming policy on here which works to protect everybody, unjustly so sometimes IMO. So the only thing you can do is go in with eyes wide open and as clued up as possible
hit from the blarney to a greater degree, which it seems you have (although I haven't read your other thread).The bottom line is that every S6 engine will need a some sort of engine work at some stage, the same as every other car engine over probably a varying degree of time. Armed with this knowledge you know you can then make the assessment based on age, mileage, service history speaking to the servicing garage etc with at least as much accuracy as the garage you're buying from.
There is a no naming and shaming policy on here which works to protect everybody, unjustly so sometimes IMO. So the only thing you can do is go in with eyes wide open and as clued up as possible
When I bought my Tuscan 2 from Hexham Horseless Carriages, I found Tony there really helpful and honest about possible issues that could arise.
Sold the car after a few months but would certainly buy from there again if they had a car that I was interested in.
Knowing very little about engines etc, I rely heavily on advice from the dealer at the time and from advice sought on here.
Sold the car after a few months but would certainly buy from there again if they had a car that I was interested in.
Knowing very little about engines etc, I rely heavily on advice from the dealer at the time and from advice sought on here.
Surely this is no different to any other dealer selling any other niche market TVR-like car. Nobles are probably a good example, 911s maybe?
Your comment regarding the engines either being rebuilt, or going to need rebuilding is taking things a bit far too. The early engines were unreliable, TVR hasn't produced any new cars since 2006, most T cars for sale have been on the road for years and had any niggles sorted. The odd one has been thrashed/broken, but they stand out if you know what you're looking for. This is why owners on here say buy on history, provenance and condition. Not the odo reading or a flashy dealer forecourt.
Your comment regarding the engines either being rebuilt, or going to need rebuilding is taking things a bit far too. The early engines were unreliable, TVR hasn't produced any new cars since 2006, most T cars for sale have been on the road for years and had any niggles sorted. The odd one has been thrashed/broken, but they stand out if you know what you're looking for. This is why owners on here say buy on history, provenance and condition. Not the odo reading or a flashy dealer forecourt.
lawtoni said:
It is generally accepted that most (yes there have been a small handful of exceptions) that an original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 will need a rebuild at circa 10k miles to 40k miles.
lawtoni said:
Yes it may be running fine now and could be sold, but the inevitable future big expenses on the inevitable rebuild must be disclosed.
Surely the first and second quotes above conflict, and unless there is not a single S6 out there that has not been rebuilt then it is not inevitable.I actually spent a while writing a more in depth reply, but ultimately like anything if you do not do research before purchase, and do not ask the right questions then you only have yourself to blame. Think of it like an MOT, it states the car is roadworthy at the time of MOT and makes no guarantees for the future. This is all you can expect from a seller.
The approach you suggest would also need to go beyond the engine if we are talking 2k items....
It "will" need the targa recovering at some point, and the rear section will need to be done as well because it will look faded compared to the targa.... 1.5 - 2 k
It "will" need new shocks at some point... 600 - 2k
It "will" need chassis work at some point... 500 - 2k
It "will" need the nose respraying at some point... 500 - 2k
It "will" need a clutch more often than a Volvo 240GLE... 1500 - 2k
If you go through life blaming someone else for not doing your research then 6k on a rebuild is going to be one of the least of your worries.....
Nagra said:
lawtoni said:
The straight 6 engine falls into 1 of 2 categories:
1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
I am not sure if it's the dealers responsibility to say anything, it should be up to the purchaser to do the negotiation. 1. rebuilt engines
2. engines that will at some point need a rebuild
Hi Lawtoni - I don't really like this post, as it might suggest to people just skim-reading this, that I might be dis-honest. You need to "mystery-shopper" TVR MADS posing as a potential Speed Six purchaser, as I don't think I have had anybody in for a test drive in the last decade, where we've not ended up discussing the Speed Six engine itself.
TVRinBFG said:
Hi Lawtoni - I don't really like this post, as it might suggest to people just skim-reading this, that I might be dis-honest. You need to "mystery-shopper" TVR MADS posing as a potential Speed Six purchaser, as I don't think I have had anybody in for a test drive in the last decade, where we've not ended up discussing the Speed Six engine itself.
I guess he may have taken you up on that but he bought a car three months ago and he's clearly still nervous about his car:lawtoni said:
I shouldn't be apprehensive but....
New Tamora 2 months ago (2002, rebuilt top end). had a tune up at bespoke performance 1 week ago (throttle bodies), and given a clean bill of health.
I have a 500 mile round trip (london to blackburn) this weekend
I could take the boring range rover
or the tam!
What would you guys take? Do you take the TVR on the longer journeys or play it safe and take the boringmobile and leave the TVR for shorter trips.
I shouldn't be fretting about this, but I am!!
Maybe its just because I'm new to TVRs and i will unclench over time!!
New Tamora 2 months ago (2002, rebuilt top end). had a tune up at bespoke performance 1 week ago (throttle bodies), and given a clean bill of health.
I have a 500 mile round trip (london to blackburn) this weekend
I could take the boring range rover
or the tam!
What would you guys take? Do you take the TVR on the longer journeys or play it safe and take the boringmobile and leave the TVR for shorter trips.
I shouldn't be fretting about this, but I am!!
Maybe its just because I'm new to TVRs and i will unclench over time!!
TOV!E said:
I think you should look at a car with a good warranty, say a vauxhall, they are giving you 100,000 miles on there cars, might be more up your street.
A tvr is a tvr, buy it with your heart, NOT your head.
No dealer has a crystal ball.
that's right,A tvr is a tvr, buy it with your heart, NOT your head.
No dealer has a crystal ball.
any engine can let go at anytime, sounds like the best thing for you is buy one with a knackered engine then take it to power and get a rebuild and a 100k 5 year warranty.
Job done.
James at MADS uses XWorks to service his cars. Heath and Paul really know their stuff.If buying from MADS simply ask Heath's opinion on the car.
I nearly bought a car from James and found him upfront and honest and would certainly buy from him in the future.
Caveat Emptor applies to anything second hand,go in with your eyes open and if not sure get it checked by a specialist.
I'm in Financial Services. We tell clients investments can go down as well as up. Anything mechanical can go wrong at any time. My T350 has done 20,000 without a rebuild , my Griffith in 10 years of ownership never broke down.Owning a car is like life,it's a lottery.
I nearly bought a car from James and found him upfront and honest and would certainly buy from him in the future.
Caveat Emptor applies to anything second hand,go in with your eyes open and if not sure get it checked by a specialist.
I'm in Financial Services. We tell clients investments can go down as well as up. Anything mechanical can go wrong at any time. My T350 has done 20,000 without a rebuild , my Griffith in 10 years of ownership never broke down.Owning a car is like life,it's a lottery.
I guess I need to repeat for the 3rd time in my own thread, at no point did I suggest that the dealer in question witheld info, (please re-read if any doubt), I said that I hope they gave all the info about the s6, as many do not.
TVRinBFG, I wrote my post very carefully and at no point do I or would I make any accusations about your dealership- however, I would urge people to read my post carefully to avoid any doubt on this issue.
In my view the rebuild issue is different to other future cost as moulder suggests- because suspension, clutches, etc... are consumables- which are expected to be replaced after a certain amount of use.
The S6 engine needs rebuilding because the majority of the original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 were made with sub-standard parts and is VERY likely to need substantial rebuilding work.
This is most often not something that can be diagnosed by your average buyer or even a mechanic without stripping the engine!
The S6 issues are not normal car issues and any one parting with £15,000+ of their hard earned money should be told this by a respected seller.
Please no more cracks about vauxhalls, and am I nervous about my own car! I am the very proud owner of 2002 Tamora (rebuilt!) and was educated about the possible flaws and problems of the s6 by a variety of professional garages (which I do not doubt TVRMads are one also), one of which got my custom!
TVRinBFG, I wrote my post very carefully and at no point do I or would I make any accusations about your dealership- however, I would urge people to read my post carefully to avoid any doubt on this issue.
In my view the rebuild issue is different to other future cost as moulder suggests- because suspension, clutches, etc... are consumables- which are expected to be replaced after a certain amount of use.
The S6 engine needs rebuilding because the majority of the original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 were made with sub-standard parts and is VERY likely to need substantial rebuilding work.
This is most often not something that can be diagnosed by your average buyer or even a mechanic without stripping the engine!
The S6 issues are not normal car issues and any one parting with £15,000+ of their hard earned money should be told this by a respected seller.
Please no more cracks about vauxhalls, and am I nervous about my own car! I am the very proud owner of 2002 Tamora (rebuilt!) and was educated about the possible flaws and problems of the s6 by a variety of professional garages (which I do not doubt TVRMads are one also), one of which got my custom!
Edited by lawtoni on Wednesday 29th June 18:29
lawtoni said:
The S6 engine needs rebuilding because the majority of the original S6s dating up to 2004/2005 were made with sub-standard parts and is VERY likely to need substantial rebuilding work.
I think you will find dealers won't tell you that because it's bks, yes the early speed six cars had those problems but talk to any decent indie and he will tell you the later cars are so much better, plenty of later cars have decent mileage on em now and are still going strong,lawtoni said:
I guess I need to repeat for the 3rd time in my own thread, at no point did I suggest that the dealer in question witheld info, (please re-read if any doubt), I said that I hope they gave all the info about the s6, as many do not.
I think calling a thread "dealer honesty" and then naming TVR Mads in the first line of the first post perhaps wasn't the best way of making your point or observations.Edited by lawtoni on Wednesday 29th June 18:29
I have nothing to do with them but when I have emailed to enquire about vehicles for sale, I have found James to be very helpful.
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