Post-traumatic stress
Discussion
I've just come across the following article:
"The number of former servicemen in prison or on probation or parole is now more than double the total British deployment in Afghanistan, according to a new survey. An estimated 20,000 veterans are in the criminal justice system, with 8,500 behind bars, almost one in 10 of the prison population"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/24/jailed-ve...
Working on the assumption that prevention is better than cure, can anything be done to cut down on the cases of post-traumatic stress or do we need to simple accept they will occur if we as a nation are going to fight wars this is going to occur?
"The number of former servicemen in prison or on probation or parole is now more than double the total British deployment in Afghanistan, according to a new survey. An estimated 20,000 veterans are in the criminal justice system, with 8,500 behind bars, almost one in 10 of the prison population"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/24/jailed-ve...
Working on the assumption that prevention is better than cure, can anything be done to cut down on the cases of post-traumatic stress or do we need to simple accept they will occur if we as a nation are going to fight wars this is going to occur?
Edited by Fittster on Wednesday 29th June 13:11
It is frightening and very danming really.
Of course years ago - WW1 - a lot of traumatised soldiers were shot as cowards. Later, shell-shock was reckonised but not really treated.
I do feel we might be letting these guys down. Aside from the trauma of active service, the forces inculcate a degree of institutionalisation that could easliy be predicted to cause individuals stress and difficulty in integrating back into society.
Of course years ago - WW1 - a lot of traumatised soldiers were shot as cowards. Later, shell-shock was reckonised but not really treated.
I do feel we might be letting these guys down. Aside from the trauma of active service, the forces inculcate a degree of institutionalisation that could easliy be predicted to cause individuals stress and difficulty in integrating back into society.
Digga said:
s3fella said:
But could it be that some are just "bad eggs" nothign to do with stress?
Some, maybe, but it's statistically unlikely to be many.An arguement could be that the structure and support of the military simply masks this for some instead of curing and once leaving the army without that structure and support fall back into old ways?
You would also have to look at the length of service and age as well as rank etc. The implication being that a troubled teenager who leaves after only a few years and still as a private may be more suseptable than someone who has been in longer, is a little older and/or has carried more responsibility via higher rank.
However, at the end of the day there is a short fall in the after service care. Each day that HfH exists is a reminder of this shortfall.
I saw something happen to a lad who was a couple of years loder than me at school. (Who I won't name for obvious reasons.)
He left to join the marines and became, at that time, the youngest ever soldier to join their mountain and arctic warfare cadre. Pretty impressive.
When he left the forces, sometime mid to late 09's IIRC, he went right off the rails, but in a very odd way; lying under women's cars in car parks. There was never any crime or assault assiocated, but he had, well a fetish almost, for it and it eventually did land him in trouble.
His CO's spoke for him during the trial and gave extremely high praise.
At school, he might have been a little bit of a nutter and was certainly a double-hard b
d, but I doubt very much whether he was - prior to active service in God knows where (Bosnia I guess) - on the sort of trajectory that would see him subject to a restraining order banning him from public car parks.
Around this time, post Bosnia and post Gulf War #1 there were other lads who came back 're-chipped' in similar, if less bizarre ways. It made me wonder. It certainly made me feel they needed help.
He left to join the marines and became, at that time, the youngest ever soldier to join their mountain and arctic warfare cadre. Pretty impressive.
When he left the forces, sometime mid to late 09's IIRC, he went right off the rails, but in a very odd way; lying under women's cars in car parks. There was never any crime or assault assiocated, but he had, well a fetish almost, for it and it eventually did land him in trouble.
His CO's spoke for him during the trial and gave extremely high praise.
At school, he might have been a little bit of a nutter and was certainly a double-hard b
d, but I doubt very much whether he was - prior to active service in God knows where (Bosnia I guess) - on the sort of trajectory that would see him subject to a restraining order banning him from public car parks.Around this time, post Bosnia and post Gulf War #1 there were other lads who came back 're-chipped' in similar, if less bizarre ways. It made me wonder. It certainly made me feel they needed help.
John Major's Government binned the Military Hospitals (save for Haslar) as well as the Psychiatric Service(s). Winky binned Haslar. All to save money.
However we have been on Ops since GW1.
The upshot is that when Servicemen and Women come home, messed up, and released from Service, there is nowhere for them to go save the bottom of the NHS queue (and an NHS that doesn't understand them/can't (or won't) help them.
Personally I think it is disgusting that we have to rely on charities such as HfH - if HMG decides to put the Armed Forces in harm's way then it is incumbent on HMG to make DAMNED sure they are looked after when they come home.
Of course that won't happen while we have lilly-livered spin merchant tossers in No 10 who prefer to look like World Statesmen of the back of the bravery and professionalism of our Armed Forces.
However we have been on Ops since GW1.
The upshot is that when Servicemen and Women come home, messed up, and released from Service, there is nowhere for them to go save the bottom of the NHS queue (and an NHS that doesn't understand them/can't (or won't) help them.
Personally I think it is disgusting that we have to rely on charities such as HfH - if HMG decides to put the Armed Forces in harm's way then it is incumbent on HMG to make DAMNED sure they are looked after when they come home.
Of course that won't happen while we have lilly-livered spin merchant tossers in No 10 who prefer to look like World Statesmen of the back of the bravery and professionalism of our Armed Forces.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
John Major's Government binned the Military Hospitals (save for Haslar) as well as the Psychiatric Service(s). Winky binned Haslar. All to save money.
However we have been on Ops since GW1.
The upshot is that when Servicemen and Women come home, messed up, and released from Service, there is nowhere for them to go save the bottom of the NHS queue (and an NHS that doesn't understand them/can't (or won't) help them.
Personally I think it is disgusting that we have to rely on charities such as HfH - if HMG decides to put the Armed Forces in harm's way then it is incumbent on HMG to make DAMNED sure they are looked after when they come home.
Of course that won't happen while we have lilly-livered spin merchant tossers in No 10 who prefer to look like World Statesmen of the back of the bravery and professionalism of our Armed Forces.
It's history, has always happened, "A fit land for heroes to live in"However we have been on Ops since GW1.
The upshot is that when Servicemen and Women come home, messed up, and released from Service, there is nowhere for them to go save the bottom of the NHS queue (and an NHS that doesn't understand them/can't (or won't) help them.
Personally I think it is disgusting that we have to rely on charities such as HfH - if HMG decides to put the Armed Forces in harm's way then it is incumbent on HMG to make DAMNED sure they are looked after when they come home.
Of course that won't happen while we have lilly-livered spin merchant tossers in No 10 who prefer to look like World Statesmen of the back of the bravery and professionalism of our Armed Forces.
The promise of all politicians, always reneged upon.
Then, very few, especially nowadays, have served.
To order is easy, to carry out?
The problem with PTSD is that you never know who it's going to affect, when, or even how. I have a mate from school who was very switched on and very fit, who all his life had wanted to be a Para, so as soon as he was old enough he enlisted. He's been through all sorts in various hell-holes such as Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan and despite being twice injured himself and losing mates, always came through the other side seemingly ok. His tipping point however came when someone he didn't really know that well, as he wasn't a mate but someone he'd trained, lost his legs in an explosion in Afghanistan. After that my mate's life just fell apart; his marriage broke down, he left the Army and some days he can hardly function at all. Day to day though you probably wouldn't notice it, but for those of us that know him well it's a black cloud that's always there.
I also know another lad who was what we used to call in the mob, "Army-barmy", in that he loved everything about it; the regimental history, the running around shooting and blowing things up, and even the marching and parades (and believe me, not many people like drill). He was a prime candidate for rapid promotion as he was always a very well turned out and sensible squaddie, yet just one tour in Iraq changed all that. He's now out of the Army, his marriage has also broken down, and he frequently spends days at a time locked away in his flat, not washing himself or keeping the place tidy and refusing to even acknowledge us when we bang on his door. A very sad waste of a promising life.
Both lads when they are on their bad days seem to operate on a form of auto-pilot and don't care what happens to them, so I can see how getting into trouble would be easy for them.
I think I'll stop there actually as this upsets me.
I also know another lad who was what we used to call in the mob, "Army-barmy", in that he loved everything about it; the regimental history, the running around shooting and blowing things up, and even the marching and parades (and believe me, not many people like drill). He was a prime candidate for rapid promotion as he was always a very well turned out and sensible squaddie, yet just one tour in Iraq changed all that. He's now out of the Army, his marriage has also broken down, and he frequently spends days at a time locked away in his flat, not washing himself or keeping the place tidy and refusing to even acknowledge us when we bang on his door. A very sad waste of a promising life.
Both lads when they are on their bad days seem to operate on a form of auto-pilot and don't care what happens to them, so I can see how getting into trouble would be easy for them.
I think I'll stop there actually as this upsets me.
Indeed!
Kipling had it right:
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Kipling had it right:
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Indeed!
Kipling had it right:
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Germany recognised it's war widows, from WW2, long before the UK.Kipling had it right:
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
What's with our attitude to those who have served and those who have lost?
s3fella said:
But could it be that some are just "bad eggs" nothign to do with stress?
Many people suffer from stress and PTSD, but I'd be surprised if 1 in 10 of them end up in clink?
Possibly bad eggs, but I doubt it. The kind of stress our guys go through to cause PTSD is far more than any kind of stress someone can get at home. Being slap bang in the middle of a fire fight every single day, must be one of the most frightening experiences possible.Many people suffer from stress and PTSD, but I'd be surprised if 1 in 10 of them end up in clink?
Like Ginetta Girl has said, the attitude or our politicians is a disgrace in this country, the sheer existence of Help for Heroes is testament to the sorry state of mind of our political class.
AshVX220 said:
Possibly bad eggs, but I doubt it. The kind of stress our guys go through to cause PTSD is far more than any kind of stress someone can get at home. Being slap bang in the middle of a fire fight every single day, must be one of the most frightening experiences possible.
Like Ginetta Girl has said, the attitude or our politicians is a disgrace in this country, the sheer existence of Help for Heroes is testament to the sorry state of mind of our political class.
Agree with you. There is also no where near enough rehabilitation for ex-service men in this country.Like Ginetta Girl has said, the attitude or our politicians is a disgrace in this country, the sheer existence of Help for Heroes is testament to the sorry state of mind of our political class.
WhoseGeneration said:
Germany recognised it's war widows, from WW2, long before the UK.
What's with our attitude to those who have served and those who have lost?
It's a remnant of the class system.What's with our attitude to those who have served and those who have lost?
As George Bernard Shaw once said, an Englishman only has to open his mouth for another Englishman to despise him.
I have a (distant) releative who has just decided to sue for damages as he's been told he's got untreated PTSD from the Falklands war.
His ship was never hit, and he personally didnt see anything more than the inside of the comms room.
But apparantly thats enough to get diagnosed?
I just think he's a yobbish drunkard. But hey, what do I know?
Seems everyone needs an excuse these days.
His ship was never hit, and he personally didnt see anything more than the inside of the comms room.
But apparantly thats enough to get diagnosed?
I just think he's a yobbish drunkard. But hey, what do I know?
Seems everyone needs an excuse these days.
PTSD is a difficult area to diagnose and at times harder to treat. Indeed there are some who 'play' the system, but there are many others, for whom this is a real nightmare. When this condition manifests, it take a lot of time and patience to help the person understand what is happening to them and longer to resolve.
It is a cruel situation indeed that returning soldiers do not (always) get the support they need and it is so sad to watch bright lives be turned to tourment. As a nation we need to do more to help these people but as with eveything else, money will often be cited as the real constraint on the ability to help.
It is a cruel situation indeed that returning soldiers do not (always) get the support they need and it is so sad to watch bright lives be turned to tourment. As a nation we need to do more to help these people but as with eveything else, money will often be cited as the real constraint on the ability to help.
drivin_me_nuts said:
PTSD is a difficult area to diagnose and at times harder to treat. Indeed there are some who 'play' the system, but there are many others, for whom this is a real nightmare. When this condition manifests, it take a lot of time and patience to help the person understand what is happening to them and longer to resolve.
It is a cruel situation indeed that returning soldiers do not (always) get the support they need and it is so sad to watch bright lives be turned to tourment. As a nation we need to do more to help these people but as with eveything else, money will often be cited as the real constraint on the ability to help.
Indeed, the covenant that CMD spent so much time banging on about recently, just doesn't exist anymore, because they'd rather through money at foreign aid, workshy baby machines and windmills, instead of helping those who were prepared to make a sacrifice for the country.It is a cruel situation indeed that returning soldiers do not (always) get the support they need and it is so sad to watch bright lives be turned to tourment. As a nation we need to do more to help these people but as with eveything else, money will often be cited as the real constraint on the ability to help.
I absolutely despise our politicians and their attitude to our military in every single respect.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff