Brand new injectors in and still the same??
Discussion
Hi Peeps..Well a massive thank you to MrTank for sending me the brand new injectors..Fitted them with new seals..Wouldnt start then flattened the battery..Jump started it and it started..Cant notice any change..I didnt take the No1 Plug lead off to see if it changes the note of the engine..Gave it a little test drive..Felt a little better..turned it off..Wouldnt start..Flattened the battery and the jump pack..Bit gutted really..Will have to check the lead tomorrow as my back is aching as ive been out there tinkering since 8.00am and only just sat down and had some brekkie..Got quite a bit done..Injectors..Template for door cards..Interior lights now work.. cleaned and Painted servo and top of radiator..Checked water pipes and cut and re-secured all the dodgey ones i could find..Fitted a throttle return spring..Cleaned all the rocker covers..fuel filter..coil..Filled,drilled and re-secured interior rear quater trim...Cheers..Ziga
P:S Just checked old injectors and the part numbers are identical so they are the same pressure rating..My thermo time switch is a little melted..Could be that?..
P:S Just checked old injectors and the part numbers are identical so they are the same pressure rating..My thermo time switch is a little melted..Could be that?..
Edited by mrzigazaga on Tuesday 5th July 16:30
Hi mate,
Really sorry to hear the injectors didn't cure it.
It just goes to show how hard it is to fix a car without seeing it.
The fault can only be one of three things.
1) Mechanical (Head gasket, burnt valve, cracked head, ect ect)
2) Ignition (Bad plug, bad HT lead, incorrect timing, ect ect)
3) Fuel (Blocked injector/injectors, low fuel pressure, metering issue, ect ect)
I really don't think your problem is mechanical, we have done our tests to prove this.
And I doubt it is ignition related but it does need testing, you need to see conclusively what KV you have on each lead & plug when it's running.
My guess is still that the fault is fuel related, but like I say without looking at the car it's always going to be a guess.
What you need to conclusively find the fault is a man with a good diagnostic machine like a Sun Tuner or a Krypton Tuner machine.
It doesn't necessarily need to go on a rolling road, just an old school mechanic with years of experience and a good diagnostic tuning machine.
He will be able to track the fault very quickly by testing the fuel pressure, air fuel ratio, spark KV ect ect.
Like you say it could be the thermo time switch but again we are just guessing, you could end up replacing every component on the fuel system and still never get rid of the fault.
It's got to go to a mechanic with a diagnostic tuning machine, if he is any good and knows how to use his machine correctly you will save money in the long run.
Apologies if I led you down the wrong road with the injectors but everything pointed towards them as the cause of the fault, at least we know the head gaskets are good.
Dave.
Really sorry to hear the injectors didn't cure it.
It just goes to show how hard it is to fix a car without seeing it.
The fault can only be one of three things.
1) Mechanical (Head gasket, burnt valve, cracked head, ect ect)
2) Ignition (Bad plug, bad HT lead, incorrect timing, ect ect)
3) Fuel (Blocked injector/injectors, low fuel pressure, metering issue, ect ect)
I really don't think your problem is mechanical, we have done our tests to prove this.
And I doubt it is ignition related but it does need testing, you need to see conclusively what KV you have on each lead & plug when it's running.
My guess is still that the fault is fuel related, but like I say without looking at the car it's always going to be a guess.
What you need to conclusively find the fault is a man with a good diagnostic machine like a Sun Tuner or a Krypton Tuner machine.
It doesn't necessarily need to go on a rolling road, just an old school mechanic with years of experience and a good diagnostic tuning machine.
He will be able to track the fault very quickly by testing the fuel pressure, air fuel ratio, spark KV ect ect.
Like you say it could be the thermo time switch but again we are just guessing, you could end up replacing every component on the fuel system and still never get rid of the fault.
It's got to go to a mechanic with a diagnostic tuning machine, if he is any good and knows how to use his machine correctly you will save money in the long run.
Apologies if I led you down the wrong road with the injectors but everything pointed towards them as the cause of the fault, at least we know the head gaskets are good.
Dave.
I'd definitely echo that.
My next door neighbour (restorer of classic cars
) had a Suntune machine, and I was having a slight miss-fire on the 280.
He was able to pin it down almost straight away to a faulty spark plug, and just as important, was able to tell me that everything else was working properly.
When I did start having starting and cutting out issues it turned out to be a mucky old fuse board... resulting in a poor connection on one particular fuse.
My car was an early black wiring model though, with fuse board in the engine bay.
My next door neighbour (restorer of classic cars
) had a Suntune machine, and I was having a slight miss-fire on the 280.He was able to pin it down almost straight away to a faulty spark plug, and just as important, was able to tell me that everything else was working properly.
When I did start having starting and cutting out issues it turned out to be a mucky old fuse board... resulting in a poor connection on one particular fuse.
My car was an early black wiring model though, with fuse board in the engine bay.
Cheers chaps..Thing is i had a sun tune up and he couldnt find the air leak in the intake..Neither could the sanspeed rolling road..I have had my fuse board checked and some wires replaced..I could try a different set of plugs..I did notice earlier that the misfire has gone on the right bank but was still slightly more pressure coming out than the left exhaust..My accumulator is really rusty looking and im wondering because the ford garage didnt know i had one then that might have contained previous rusty fuel..And may not be holding fuel preesure especially as it was established by the sanspeed that the fuel pressure is dropping away as soon as the engine is turned off..He tested this by clamping the return fuel line while it was running and the turning off the car..Counting 30 secs and then asking me to crank it while he releases the clamp..It started 3-4 times on the button when he done this..But we couldnt establish what was letting the fuel drop?..That pipe goes back to the tank..Im baffled..Ziga
mrzigazaga said:
..And may not be holding fuel preesure especially as it was established by the sanspeed that the fuel pressure is dropping away as soon as the engine is turned off..He tested this by clamping the return fuel line while it was running and the turning off the car..Counting 30 secs and then asking me to crank it while he releases the clamp..It started 3-4 times on the button when he done this..But we couldnt establish what was letting the fuel drop?..That pipe goes back to the tank..Im baffled..Ziga
If he clamped the return hose and it started then I'm afraid that points to the Fuel Dist not the Accumaltor.The Accuumalator maintains pressure after key is turned off...on the "Go side" but the hose from the Fuel dist just runs back to the tank and is open. So if he clamped that and it re-started then the FD is releasing the pressure.
If I remember correctly wasn't there some issue with an extra couple of "T" joints in your fuel hoses. Wasn't one of them routing the return back with another hose. If one of those "T"s was in the "GO" run (pump to filtre) that would eff up your residual pressure. But I'm sure the sanspeed guy would have sussed that as he clamped the return (hence...he knew it should maintain pressure)
As correctly pointed out earlier, remote guesses are not awefully useful. (which is what I'm doing
) I can only suggest checking the hoses on the side of the FD as I think you have something fundementally wrong. The hose from Acc to Filtre should be direct.
Shutting off the cold start to eliminate it might not hurt either.
You should have 30 psi for 10 minutes !
You are loosing it instantly (from your description)
Thanks jeff..I did cap off the unecessary "T"s on all the pipe and it is routed correctly even if some of the pipe is longer than it should be..I have had the fuel distributor changed over to one of the ones i went and got off of weginald a while back..I cant see them both having the same issue but you never know..The pressure regulator was supplied by the ford garage and it was one that he had laying around and when i think back to when i first got the car it didnt have an issue starting only running..Maybe this is the problem ..Isnt the pressure regulator supposed to hold pressure because if thats failing wouldnt it return fuel back to the tank via the metering head?..Iam looking into getting someone with a fuel pressure tester as this still hasnt been done by anyone trying to diagnose my problems..At least if they start at the pump and end up at the WUR then i should know where the fault lies..Im not going to faff around with it too much as it will get me to BBWF..I think..But if i can find out whats causing it it might be one expense worth paying out for..I will be on the phone tomorrow..Cheers..Ziga
mrzigazaga said:
Thanks jeff..I did cap off the unecessary "T"s on all the pipe and it is routed correctly even if some of the pipe is longer than it should be..I have had the fuel distributor changed over to one of the ones i went and got off of weginald a while back..I cant see them both having the same issue but you never know..The pressure regulator was supplied by the ford garage and it was one that he had laying around and when i think back to when i first got the car it didnt have an issue starting only running..Maybe this is the problem ..Isnt the pressure regulator supposed to hold pressure because if thats failing wouldnt it return fuel back to the tank via the metering head?..Iam looking into getting someone with a fuel pressure tester as this still hasnt been done by anyone trying to diagnose my problems..At least if they start at the pump and end up at the WUR then i should know where the fault lies..Im not going to faff around with it too much as it will get me to BBWF..I think..But if i can find out whats causing it it might be one expense worth paying out for..I will be on the phone tomorrow..Cheers..Ziga
Like I said on the phone Zig, fuel pressure is everything on the K-Jetronic system.The fuel pressure is not only important for all the normal reasons on an injected engine, but on the K-Jetronic system the fuel pressure is ultimately what controls the metering.
It's a mechanical system after all.
Anyone that claims to be diagnosing a fault like this on a K-Jetronic system who doesn't start by testing the fuel pressure at each point in the chain quite honestly doesn't know what the F they are doing.
When we spoke last night you told me the fuel pressure has never been tested
, to be honest I nearly fell off my chair when you told me this, every time we speak I find out something new.All our chats and attempts to diagnose your fault and I find out a fuel pressure gauge hasn't even been near the car, THAT'S MADNESS MATE!!!
I made the schoolboy error of assuming because you have had two so called professionals look at the car that the fuel pressure had been properly checked, after all it's the very first thing you do on this system.
No wonder the injectors didn't cure it, and let's be honest I did tell you to swap them bank to bank before we could conclusively condemn them, I think you got a bit excited and jumped this step because you became convinced the injectors were the fault.
As I have been saying all along it's almost impossible to diagnose the fault on the phone & email, the car needs to be seen and it needs a man with the right kit and knowledge.
The process of diagnosis is just a simple journey testing everything in the chain systematically, start at the pump and end at the fuel return to the tank, testing everything between in turn is the only way to find the fault.
Blindly replacing parts of the fuel injection system without checking the fuel pressure is a bit like changing light bulbs in your house because it's gone dark, without first checking if the main fuse has tripped.
As I explained on the phone, fuel pressure is everything on the K-Jetronic system, get it checked & get it checked systemically at all points in the chain of components that control it.
YOU MUST INSIST THEY CHECK THE PRESSURE AT EACH POINT IN THE CHAIN, NOT JUST AT ONE POINT.
Starting at the pump and moving gauge along the line step by step is the only way to find the fault.
If anyone else offers to check your car that doesn't even own a fuel pressure gauge (like the last two), WALK AWAY & FIND A PROFESSIONAL!!!
Good luck with it mate, you will find it.
Chimpafrolic said:
Like I said on the phone Zig, fuel pressure is everything on the K-Jetronic system.
The fuel pressure is not only important for all the normal reasons on an injected engine, but on the K-Jetronic system the fuel pressure is ultimately what controls the metering.
It's a mechanical system after all.
Anyone that claims to be diagnosing a fault like this on a K-Jetronic system who doesn't start by testing the fuel pressure at each point in the chain quite honestly doesn't know what the F they are doing.
When we spoke last night you told me the fuel pressure has never been tested, to be honest I nearly fell off my chair when you told me this, every time we speak I find out something new.
All our chats and attempts to diagnose your fault and I find out a fuel pressure gauge hasn't even been near the car, THAT'S MADNESS MATE!!!
I made the schoolboy error of assuming because you have had two so called professionals look at the car that the fuel pressure had been properly checked, after all it's the very first thing you do on this system.
No wonder the injectors didn't cure it, and let's be honest I did tell you to swap them bank to bank before we could conclusively condemn them, I think you got a bit excited and jumped this step because you became convinced the injectors were the fault.
As I have been saying all along it's almost impossible to diagnose the fault on the phone & email, the car needs to be seen and it needs a man with the right kit and knowledge.
The process of diagnosis is just a simple journey testing everything in the chain systematically, start at the pump and end at the fuel return to the tank, testing everything between in turn is the only way to find the fault.
Blindly replacing parts of the fuel injection system without checking the fuel pressure is a bit like changing light bulbs in your house because it's gone dark, without first checking if the main fuse has tripped.
As I explained on the phone, fuel pressure is everything on the K-Jetronic system, get it checked & get it checked systemically at all points in the chain of components that control it.
YOU MUST INSIST THEY CHECK THE PRESSURE AT EACH POINT IN THE CHAIN, NOT JUST AT ONE POINT.
Starting at the pump and moving gauge along the line step by step is the only way to find the fault.
If anyone else offers to check your car that doesn't even own a fuel pressure gauge (like the last two), WALK AWAY & FIND A PROFESSIONAL!!!
Good luck with it mate, you will find it.
I second this...but will just add that a CIS pressure gauge needs to be used.The fuel pressure is not only important for all the normal reasons on an injected engine, but on the K-Jetronic system the fuel pressure is ultimately what controls the metering.
It's a mechanical system after all.
Anyone that claims to be diagnosing a fault like this on a K-Jetronic system who doesn't start by testing the fuel pressure at each point in the chain quite honestly doesn't know what the F they are doing.
When we spoke last night you told me the fuel pressure has never been tested
, to be honest I nearly fell off my chair when you told me this, every time we speak I find out something new.All our chats and attempts to diagnose your fault and I find out a fuel pressure gauge hasn't even been near the car, THAT'S MADNESS MATE!!!
I made the schoolboy error of assuming because you have had two so called professionals look at the car that the fuel pressure had been properly checked, after all it's the very first thing you do on this system.
No wonder the injectors didn't cure it, and let's be honest I did tell you to swap them bank to bank before we could conclusively condemn them, I think you got a bit excited and jumped this step because you became convinced the injectors were the fault.
As I have been saying all along it's almost impossible to diagnose the fault on the phone & email, the car needs to be seen and it needs a man with the right kit and knowledge.
The process of diagnosis is just a simple journey testing everything in the chain systematically, start at the pump and end at the fuel return to the tank, testing everything between in turn is the only way to find the fault.
Blindly replacing parts of the fuel injection system without checking the fuel pressure is a bit like changing light bulbs in your house because it's gone dark, without first checking if the main fuse has tripped.
As I explained on the phone, fuel pressure is everything on the K-Jetronic system, get it checked & get it checked systemically at all points in the chain of components that control it.
YOU MUST INSIST THEY CHECK THE PRESSURE AT EACH POINT IN THE CHAIN, NOT JUST AT ONE POINT.
Starting at the pump and moving gauge along the line step by step is the only way to find the fault.
If anyone else offers to check your car that doesn't even own a fuel pressure gauge (like the last two), WALK AWAY & FIND A PROFESSIONAL!!!
Good luck with it mate, you will find it.
Find someone who does old 911s (the 2.7 was CIS, 1973 to around '80.
Ive been phonning around all day and cant find anyone who can do it this week..They are all fully booked until next week..Which will not give me enough time to sort it so i might not be coming in the wedge..I dont really fancy all that driving on 5 cylinders..I ran it up earlier after swapping the plugs around but to no avail and noticed that the fan came on and didnt go off until about 15mins after i turned it off..It used to come on..cool down a bit..come back on ..I got a hunch its overheating..cheers..Ziga
jeff m said:
I second this...but will just add that a CIS pressure gauge needs to be used.
Find someone who does old 911s (the 2.7 was CIS, 1973 to around '80.
K-Jetronic is a continuous injection system (CIS), thats what K stands for "kontinuierlich" is German for continuous.
It's what I like to call an incontinent injection system, IE it cant stop pissng
The most important fundamental thing to understand with a CIS system is there are two very different types of pressure to be understood and tested.
1) System pressure, IE the basic fuel pressure created by the fuel pump and maintained by the pressure relief valve in the fuel distributor
2) Control pressure which determined by the control pressure regulator, control pressure is utilised to counter system pressure and regulate the movement of the control plunger, that pesky warm up regulator also gets involved here.
If Zig's problem does turn out to be on the fuel side, I would say it will most likely be on the control pressure side of things.
I always think of control pressure like the spring in the damper pot of an SU carburettor, the control pressure is creating an opposite force to stop the plunger flying up when the throttle is opened.
Too little control pressure and it's like taking that spring out of your old SU carb, it's going to run very rich when the throttle gets opened.
Too much control pressure and its like having a spring that's too heavy in our hypothetical SU carb, so she will not get enough fuel.
Either way if the control pressure is wrong it will run like a bag of poo.
By varying the control pressure the system is in effect creating what you ideally need (but never have) in an SU, a continuously variable damper pot spring.
The K-Jectronic system is both ingenious and crude at the same time.
The fuel metering can be extremely accurate but on the other hand continuously chucking fuel in is ridiculously inefficient.
That's when you start to realise why the industry ditched it and went to electronically fired injectors.
You get electronic fuel injection as standard on a Chimaera
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