Z3 2.8 vs 3.0 vs 2.8 and mods
Discussion
So looking at Z3 2,8's. Was thinking of spending up to 3k (but can go up to 4,5k perhaps in the case of a nice 3.0 with extra goodies like hardtop) . Looking to buy as early as this winter or maybe next year, depending on when I move back to uk.
Then I have noticed that 3.0's that actually sell are selling around 3200 - 5000 (Z4 3.0 start at 6k so perhaps can be had for 5,5):
Examples of one for 3200 (with towbar! and hardtop, 103k miles, 10yrs service history).Looked like a genuine car.
Most are advertised at 4k upwards but that does not mean they are selling at that price - see the page here that shows what's sold and what hasn't: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=136&am...
2.8s are start from 2k but a decent looking one is up for around 3,5k so probably can be had for 3k.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=136&am...
So I think the the difference between similar condition 2.8 and 3.0 cars is around 1,5- 2k.
Is it worth it for the differences:
Important stuff:
I know the 3.0 has 231 bhp vs 192 so that should be noticeable and maybe torquier.
LSD - The 3.0 seems to have one and the 2.8 does not?
Does the 3.0 sound better - My 330i sounded better than any 328's I tried (but that may have been down to the sound generator) - I will want to fit a nice exhaust system to either car though so perhaps this will negate any differences from standard.
Roll bars - I see the 3.0 all have these and almost none of the 2.8's have them.
Not so important stuff:
Looks - I like both.
Climate control - it seems that the 3.0 have climate and the 2.8 just a/c with knobs not digital controls - I like climate control more.
Seats - the 3.0 seats seem a bit nicer - more like the M models.
Steering seems nicer too
More 3.0 have the nice BBS looking wheels
Or perhaps buy a cheaper 2.8 and spend the difference on strut braces, a air box upgrade and the 'M50 Manifold conversion' like this 2.8:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2640172.htm
This actually seems well set up with the mods focused on making it a better drivers car.
Then I noticed that Z3M are 'just' 7k....but that is another story...I don't have a massive budget for maintenance so I need to stick with a normal model for now...
Then I have noticed that 3.0's that actually sell are selling around 3200 - 5000 (Z4 3.0 start at 6k so perhaps can be had for 5,5):
Examples of one for 3200 (with towbar! and hardtop, 103k miles, 10yrs service history).Looked like a genuine car.
Most are advertised at 4k upwards but that does not mean they are selling at that price - see the page here that shows what's sold and what hasn't: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=136&am...
2.8s are start from 2k but a decent looking one is up for around 3,5k so probably can be had for 3k.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=136&am...
So I think the the difference between similar condition 2.8 and 3.0 cars is around 1,5- 2k.
Is it worth it for the differences:
Important stuff:
I know the 3.0 has 231 bhp vs 192 so that should be noticeable and maybe torquier.
LSD - The 3.0 seems to have one and the 2.8 does not?
Does the 3.0 sound better - My 330i sounded better than any 328's I tried (but that may have been down to the sound generator) - I will want to fit a nice exhaust system to either car though so perhaps this will negate any differences from standard.
Roll bars - I see the 3.0 all have these and almost none of the 2.8's have them.
Not so important stuff:
Looks - I like both.
Climate control - it seems that the 3.0 have climate and the 2.8 just a/c with knobs not digital controls - I like climate control more.
Seats - the 3.0 seats seem a bit nicer - more like the M models.
Steering seems nicer too
More 3.0 have the nice BBS looking wheels
Or perhaps buy a cheaper 2.8 and spend the difference on strut braces, a air box upgrade and the 'M50 Manifold conversion' like this 2.8:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2640172.htm
This actually seems well set up with the mods focused on making it a better drivers car.
Then I noticed that Z3M are 'just' 7k....but that is another story...I don't have a massive budget for maintenance so I need to stick with a normal model for now...
Thanks for the info.
What sort of MPG do you get on yours - on the motorway, town and thrashing it.
On my 330i I used to get over 30 on the motorway and 20 hooning and around 25 in town - my overall average was 25mpg over about 20k miles which i thought was good and similar to what I got on a Vtec Honda.
Are there 6 and 5sp 3.0 Z3 like there are with the e46 3.0?
What sort of MPG do you get on yours - on the motorway, town and thrashing it.
On my 330i I used to get over 30 on the motorway and 20 hooning and around 25 in town - my overall average was 25mpg over about 20k miles which i thought was good and similar to what I got on a Vtec Honda.
Are there 6 and 5sp 3.0 Z3 like there are with the e46 3.0?
Dino D said:
Thanks for the info.
What sort of MPG do you get on yours - on the motorway, town and thrashing it.
On my 330i I used to get over 30 on the motorway and 20 hooning and around 25 in town - my overall average was 25mpg over about 20k miles which i thought was good and similar to what I got on a Vtec Honda.
Are there 6 and 5sp 3.0 Z3 like there are with the e46 3.0?
We are averaging 31mpg at the moment and that is just short town driving. What sort of MPG do you get on yours - on the motorway, town and thrashing it.
On my 330i I used to get over 30 on the motorway and 20 hooning and around 25 in town - my overall average was 25mpg over about 20k miles which i thought was good and similar to what I got on a Vtec Honda.
Are there 6 and 5sp 3.0 Z3 like there are with the e46 3.0?
Recently did 2200 miles across belgium & france and we were averaging much more than that as you can imagine.
I wouldnt think of it as a thirsty car. It uses less than my previous Mini Cooper S.
You can expect to get around 25-28mpg from a 2.8 if doing sensible driving.
The Z3's are all 5 speed, which is a shame as a 6th would be good.
The Z3 3.0 has the same engine that the E46 330's had.
The Z3 2.8 has the same engine that the E36 328'S had (and some of the pre facelift E46's)
The 2.8 is just generally not as lively IMO
Thanks for the replies.
That 2.8 has some interesting mods on it:
[i]Handling Upgrades
"Strong Front Strut Brace
"Strong Rear Underbody Strut Brace
Falken 452 Tyres all round
Performance Upgrades
M50 Inlet Manifold and Big Bore Throttle Body Conversion
Chipped UK Live Remap
Gruppe M Replica Carbon Fibre Air IntakeQuad "m" Style Stainless Steel Exhaust
This Conversion is well known in BMW Circles on this type of 2.8 engine[/i]
Has anyone done the braces - I drove a Z3 many years ago on rough roads and don't remember the shake being very bad (unlike the Audi 80 cab before it) but I am sure braces like these will make a difference now that the car is 10yrs old and covered a few miles.
The carbon air intake should make it sound interesting...
That 2.8 has some interesting mods on it:
[i]Handling Upgrades
"Strong Front Strut Brace
"Strong Rear Underbody Strut Brace
Falken 452 Tyres all round
Performance Upgrades
M50 Inlet Manifold and Big Bore Throttle Body Conversion
Chipped UK Live Remap
Gruppe M Replica Carbon Fibre Air IntakeQuad "m" Style Stainless Steel Exhaust
This Conversion is well known in BMW Circles on this type of 2.8 engine[/i]
Has anyone done the braces - I drove a Z3 many years ago on rough roads and don't remember the shake being very bad (unlike the Audi 80 cab before it) but I am sure braces like these will make a difference now that the car is 10yrs old and covered a few miles.
The carbon air intake should make it sound interesting...
Dino D said:
Thanks for the replies.
That 2.8 has some interesting mods on it:
[i]Handling Upgrades
"Strong Front Strut Brace
"Strong Rear Underbody Strut Brace
Falken 452 Tyres all round
Performance Upgrades
M50 Inlet Manifold and Big Bore Throttle Body Conversion
Chipped UK Live Remap
Gruppe M Replica Carbon Fibre Air IntakeQuad "m" Style Stainless Steel Exhaust
This Conversion is well known in BMW Circles on this type of 2.8 engine[/i]
Has anyone done the braces - I drove a Z3 many years ago on rough roads and don't remember the shake being very bad (unlike the Audi 80 cab before it) but I am sure braces like these will make a difference now that the car is 10yrs old and covered a few miles.
The carbon air intake should make it sound interesting...
Real world difference (roll on performance) between a stock 3.0 and a stock 2.8 isn't much. 2.8 has the bulletproof M52 engine (none of the Nikasil engines were in 2.8 Z's) and the 3.0 has the M54 as stated. M54 uses oil!That 2.8 has some interesting mods on it:
[i]Handling Upgrades
"Strong Front Strut Brace
"Strong Rear Underbody Strut Brace
Falken 452 Tyres all round
Performance Upgrades
M50 Inlet Manifold and Big Bore Throttle Body Conversion
Chipped UK Live Remap
Gruppe M Replica Carbon Fibre Air IntakeQuad "m" Style Stainless Steel Exhaust
This Conversion is well known in BMW Circles on this type of 2.8 engine[/i]
Has anyone done the braces - I drove a Z3 many years ago on rough roads and don't remember the shake being very bad (unlike the Audi 80 cab before it) but I am sure braces like these will make a difference now that the car is 10yrs old and covered a few miles.
The carbon air intake should make it sound interesting...
The car above has some good mods on it and the only thing I see missing is the M3 TCA bushes, which are the Z3's other tramlining malady. You should have a look at this car & drive it IMO as you might like it a lot more than a stock/abused 3.0. The mods done indicate it's a real Z enthusiast (Strong struts are not cheap but very high quality).
Another factor you have missed is that the 3.0's all have DSC, which the 2.8's do not, so if it's a year round car and your missus drives, that might be more sensible.
FWIW, all 2.8's had LSD (UK models anyway) and most have the standard roll hoops too, with powered hood.
I think you're very ipotimistic on price for a 3.0 Z3. A friend was looking for a while and found it much easier to get a 2.5 Z4 than a 3.0 Z3 (that he was happy with in terms of price and condition)!
Happy hunting and hope this helps.
Stu
Thanks for the input StuB.
Yes that modded 2.8 does sound interesting and would probably feel very quick because of the sound.
I read up on those Strong braces - get raving reviews and seems like a good idea for any Z.
I like the sound of the airbox mod and exhaust - would love to hear it. Whatever I get I will definitely change exhaust and possibly intake to release the sound of the engine as that is half the fun of this car for me.
That car is based in Spain though (proper UK car though). If it's still for sale when I am ready to buy it might be worth a cheap flight to Alicante..
Regarding prices - I have not seen any cars in the flesh yet, just on the net so not sure if the condition matches the description - some dogs out there and lots of cherished ones though but tens to be priced higher but the only ones that show up as sold on PH are the best price ones...buying in the winter will help too as long as we are not snowed in!
Yes that modded 2.8 does sound interesting and would probably feel very quick because of the sound.
I read up on those Strong braces - get raving reviews and seems like a good idea for any Z.
I like the sound of the airbox mod and exhaust - would love to hear it. Whatever I get I will definitely change exhaust and possibly intake to release the sound of the engine as that is half the fun of this car for me.
That car is based in Spain though (proper UK car though). If it's still for sale when I am ready to buy it might be worth a cheap flight to Alicante..
Regarding prices - I have not seen any cars in the flesh yet, just on the net so not sure if the condition matches the description - some dogs out there and lots of cherished ones though but tens to be priced higher but the only ones that show up as sold on PH are the best price ones...buying in the winter will help too as long as we are not snowed in!
Hi Dino D,
I have a 1999 Double vanos unit with 44k on the clock with a number of nice mods. I hace had the car from standard performance to the current tune now and must say it makes a real differece. I have had exhaust, simota induction, original manifold and t.body reworked by CA Automotive in London with a remap to tigh things together and this makes everything breath so much easier. Noise level top down sounds so good and on recent runs on the P.head community have commented on how well it runs thus question me on "it must not be standard then?" If I had spent another 750pound on the cams then I would be looking a stock Z3m performance.
I would say you can find a really goo 2.8 in good condition and spend a little money on mods to free up some ponies, but like myself I know if or when I come to sell mine I will never get the money back but makes the car a sleeper on the streets.
I have a 1999 Double vanos unit with 44k on the clock with a number of nice mods. I hace had the car from standard performance to the current tune now and must say it makes a real differece. I have had exhaust, simota induction, original manifold and t.body reworked by CA Automotive in London with a remap to tigh things together and this makes everything breath so much easier. Noise level top down sounds so good and on recent runs on the P.head community have commented on how well it runs thus question me on "it must not be standard then?" If I had spent another 750pound on the cams then I would be looking a stock Z3m performance.
I would say you can find a really goo 2.8 in good condition and spend a little money on mods to free up some ponies, but like myself I know if or when I come to sell mine I will never get the money back but makes the car a sleeper on the streets.
Portmyster said:
Hi Dino D,
I have a 1999 Double vanos unit with 44k on the clock with a number of nice mods. I hace had the car from standard performance to the current tune now and must say it makes a real differece. I have had exhaust, simota induction, original manifold and t.body reworked by CA Automotive in London with a remap to tigh things together and this makes everything breath so much easier. Noise level top down sounds so good and on recent runs on the P.head community have commented on how well it runs thus question me on "it must not be standard then?" If I had spent another 750pound on the cams then I would be looking a stock Z3m performance.
I would say you can find a really goo 2.8 in good condition and spend a little money on mods to free up some ponies, but like myself I know if or when I come to sell mine I will never get the money back but makes the car a sleeper on the streets.
That sounds interesting...How much did that all cost?I have a 1999 Double vanos unit with 44k on the clock with a number of nice mods. I hace had the car from standard performance to the current tune now and must say it makes a real differece. I have had exhaust, simota induction, original manifold and t.body reworked by CA Automotive in London with a remap to tigh things together and this makes everything breath so much easier. Noise level top down sounds so good and on recent runs on the P.head community have commented on how well it runs thus question me on "it must not be standard then?" If I had spent another 750pound on the cams then I would be looking a stock Z3m performance.
I would say you can find a really goo 2.8 in good condition and spend a little money on mods to free up some ponies, but like myself I know if or when I come to sell mine I will never get the money back but makes the car a sleeper on the streets.
You specify 99 Double Vanos - does that mean the 98 are not double vanos?
I am wondering if a cheaper 2.8 instead of more expensive 3.0 and spend change on some brace bars and choice mods could make it much more special car. If I get a nice 3.0 the budget will be finished for any mods for at least a year.
Outright grunt is always good but the sound and the way it is delivered as well as good handling is ultimately more nb and makes for more enjoyment in my books..
What I really need is a 3.0 and budget for mods, actually no, a Z3M and a budget for mods is what I really need!
Hi Dino,
Yes that was my thought and still is, I have paid around 2k for all that work on my car which means over all my car cost 6K 3yrs ago and add the mods 8k. If I have thought ahead I would have not done that above and sold the car to get a Z3m but by doing this I have knowledge of the car and trust the mods which I have done and really all I have done is just give the engine its power that is should have com out of the factory before the emissions rules changed and thus resticting the flow from the engine.
Pre 99 cars are single and standard power 189 bhp and spoted by curved exhaust manifold but mine is a double which has a straight exhaust manifold with 193bhp but the single manifold car can be easily and cheeply have the same mods done with a remap for £600ish maybe little less.
Yes that was my thought and still is, I have paid around 2k for all that work on my car which means over all my car cost 6K 3yrs ago and add the mods 8k. If I have thought ahead I would have not done that above and sold the car to get a Z3m but by doing this I have knowledge of the car and trust the mods which I have done and really all I have done is just give the engine its power that is should have com out of the factory before the emissions rules changed and thus resticting the flow from the engine.
Pre 99 cars are single and standard power 189 bhp and spoted by curved exhaust manifold but mine is a double which has a straight exhaust manifold with 193bhp but the single manifold car can be easily and cheeply have the same mods done with a remap for £600ish maybe little less.
Portmyster said:
Hi Dino,
Pre 99 cars are single and standard power 189 bhp and spoted by curved exhaust manifold but mine is a double which has a straight exhaust manifold with 193bhp but the single manifold car can be easily and cheeply have the same mods done with a remap for £600ish maybe little less.
Are you saying 600quid to gain 4bhp - or is there some big gain in torque too - it seems expensive for little gain if I understood correct.Pre 99 cars are single and standard power 189 bhp and spoted by curved exhaust manifold but mine is a double which has a straight exhaust manifold with 193bhp but the single manifold car can be easily and cheeply have the same mods done with a remap for £600ish maybe little less.
Can you give a little breakdown of the costs of your mods to get the power you getting - bearing in mind I can't do anything myself so would pay someone else to do it.
PS: Would the change of cams really take you to 300 bhp?
On standard single vanos unit cars they achieve 189bhp but the double 193bhp but with manifold, t.body and remap looking on a 30 bhp increase i.e. making the car 220-230 bhp. With cams I would look at 240-250 bhp which is no where near the 321 of the //m but because you get healthy increase in torque from 0-100mhp as quated from CA Automotive there will be very little difference in the performance.
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=626...
A link to zedroadster.net which a few of us have made this swap and with some pricing.
When are you looking to buy your zed?
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=626...
A link to zedroadster.net which a few of us have made this swap and with some pricing.
When are you looking to buy your zed?
Thanks for the forum link.
Is the 189bhp single vanos car also able to be modded like the double vanos one?
I am looking to buy in Dec/Jan - in Greece at the moment but relocating by Dec so will need a car - will get the wife a X3 3.0i I think and use that until I find my car.
Would be nice to have a 3.0 Z and x3 3.0 then I can say I own 6l and 12 cylinders but 5,8l is not so far off!
The pic of your car with the chrome multispoke looks great by the way.
Is the 189bhp single vanos car also able to be modded like the double vanos one?
I am looking to buy in Dec/Jan - in Greece at the moment but relocating by Dec so will need a car - will get the wife a X3 3.0i I think and use that until I find my car.
Would be nice to have a 3.0 Z and x3 3.0 then I can say I own 6l and 12 cylinders but 5,8l is not so far off!
The pic of your car with the chrome multispoke looks great by the way.
The single manifold conversion is very cheep, mine was exspensive as my original parts was machined by CA Automotive as I cannot do the conversion myself but the zroadster.net have many members who have done such a conversion them selves. 3.0 Z3 very hard to come by now when especialy the 2.8 is basic the 3.0 with some tweeks anyway. Hope you hunt goes well and thanks for the comment, the car is nice with the bits that I have added.
So have an update. I went for a 2.8 with mods which are pretty much what I would have liked to do to the car myself. I think I may do the throttle body much later on and perhaps a rear brace but apart from that it has been nicely done inside and out. It was over my original budget but good value for me as the mods alone are worth allot, let alone the labour and time to do them (which I just wouldn't get around to doing myself).
Soonest I can pick it up is in 2 weeks though...agony!
Link to ad:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/3166814.htm
The mods include:
SUSPENSION: E-Tech front strut bar, FK Silverline Coilover Plus suspension (TUV approved, stainless steel adjustment thread so never rust, 30% upgraded - so very similar to BMW Sports suspension and very compliant in every day driving), front camber adjustable top mounts, BMW OEM M3 front strut reinforcement plates, Meyle Heavy Duty rear top mounts, Meyle Heavy Duty control arms, BMW OEM shock reinforcement plates rear, Powerflex polybush kit, new sway bar/drop links and tie rods - this gives a very assured ride and because I spent a lot of time researching my options the every day drivability of the car has not been sacrificed. In addition, when all of the new components were fitted I took the car along to Pro-GRIP in Bonnybridge to be professionally set up.
BRAKES: The brakes were completely overhauled in April 2011 and my car now benefits from EBC Yellow Stuff brake pads (front and rear) coupled with Brembo High Carbon brake discs all round with Goodridge braided stainless steel brake lines
WHEELS AND TYRES: 18" Staggered Beyern Multi (FRONT 18x8.5 and REAR 18x9.5) with Falken FK-452's all round (FRONT 225/40/18 and REAR 255/35/18)
PERFORMANCE: ITG Pro Filter drop in replacement filter, SuperSprint stainless steel back box, Earl's performance stainless steel braided clutch hose
ICE: Alpine CDE-9880R stereo with full speed iPod control, Factory upgraded Harman Kardon system (amp, speakers and subwoofer), BMW OEM Sport Antenna
ALARM: Clifford G5 650 MKII CAT 1 alarm and immobiliser with dual proximity sensor, smartwindows, blackjax etc - perfect for a convertible!! comes with both key fobs, instruction book and insurance certificate
EXTERIOR: Clear front indicator lens conversion with chrome bulbs, clear side indicators with chrome bulbs, clear/red rear light units with chrome bulbs, Z3 M side gills (still have original 'shark grills' which will be included in sale)
INTERIOR: Lexan Windblox Windscreen for roll hoops, Storm Motorwerks V1 stainless short and weighted gear knob, Storm Motorwerks handbrake cover, Storm Motorwerks cigar lighter blank, Doug Whalen black anodised hood release handle, Custom EL Lockwood dials (beige) with LED conversion and red needles - although I'm in the process of tracking down a replacement BMW OEM cluster to revert back to original as I know this isn't to everyone's taste!
Soonest I can pick it up is in 2 weeks though...agony!
Link to ad:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/3166814.htm
The mods include:
SUSPENSION: E-Tech front strut bar, FK Silverline Coilover Plus suspension (TUV approved, stainless steel adjustment thread so never rust, 30% upgraded - so very similar to BMW Sports suspension and very compliant in every day driving), front camber adjustable top mounts, BMW OEM M3 front strut reinforcement plates, Meyle Heavy Duty rear top mounts, Meyle Heavy Duty control arms, BMW OEM shock reinforcement plates rear, Powerflex polybush kit, new sway bar/drop links and tie rods - this gives a very assured ride and because I spent a lot of time researching my options the every day drivability of the car has not been sacrificed. In addition, when all of the new components were fitted I took the car along to Pro-GRIP in Bonnybridge to be professionally set up.
BRAKES: The brakes were completely overhauled in April 2011 and my car now benefits from EBC Yellow Stuff brake pads (front and rear) coupled with Brembo High Carbon brake discs all round with Goodridge braided stainless steel brake lines
WHEELS AND TYRES: 18" Staggered Beyern Multi (FRONT 18x8.5 and REAR 18x9.5) with Falken FK-452's all round (FRONT 225/40/18 and REAR 255/35/18)
PERFORMANCE: ITG Pro Filter drop in replacement filter, SuperSprint stainless steel back box, Earl's performance stainless steel braided clutch hose
ICE: Alpine CDE-9880R stereo with full speed iPod control, Factory upgraded Harman Kardon system (amp, speakers and subwoofer), BMW OEM Sport Antenna
ALARM: Clifford G5 650 MKII CAT 1 alarm and immobiliser with dual proximity sensor, smartwindows, blackjax etc - perfect for a convertible!! comes with both key fobs, instruction book and insurance certificate
EXTERIOR: Clear front indicator lens conversion with chrome bulbs, clear side indicators with chrome bulbs, clear/red rear light units with chrome bulbs, Z3 M side gills (still have original 'shark grills' which will be included in sale)
INTERIOR: Lexan Windblox Windscreen for roll hoops, Storm Motorwerks V1 stainless short and weighted gear knob, Storm Motorwerks handbrake cover, Storm Motorwerks cigar lighter blank, Doug Whalen black anodised hood release handle, Custom EL Lockwood dials (beige) with LED conversion and red needles - although I'm in the process of tracking down a replacement BMW OEM cluster to revert back to original as I know this isn't to everyone's taste!
Pig Skill said:
Afraid not. All the range have suffered. There is a guy on zroadster.net who has recently had some spots repaired on his 2.8. Best get it checked before you pick it up I reckon. Hope it's ok.
Just been checked with pics - all ok so no worries there! I guess with age and hard use it may become an issue in the future - any preventative work that I can do to it?Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff