Thinking of buying a 964?
Discussion
Our lads thinking of buying a 911 (964) he was all set with his mind made up until he heard some bad stories with engine rebuilds etc? surly they cannot be that bad, (German Engineering)
Any advice with things to look out for would be good? they dont seem badly priced but is there a reason? the other cars he is maybe considering are BMW M3, TVR Cerbera(4.2,4.5 V8)
Cheers
Steve
Any advice with things to look out for would be good? they dont seem badly priced but is there a reason? the other cars he is maybe considering are BMW M3, TVR Cerbera(4.2,4.5 V8)
Cheers
Steve
The 964 engines tend to suffer from oil leaks as they get older. It is not because they are unreliable juts a fact of life with these cars that you should budget for an engine rebuild around the 100k mile mark. The otehr alternative is to find one that has had one done within the last 20k miles.
The above is a generalisation but each individual car needs to be assessed on its own merit. When you have found the right car at teh right price, get it inspected bya specialist Porsche independent.
The above is a generalisation but each individual car needs to be assessed on its own merit. When you have found the right car at teh right price, get it inspected bya specialist Porsche independent.
The oil leak problem on the 964 engine surfaced much earlier than 100k miles. So most tend to have had that basic problem fixed by now.
The 100k rebuild thing is correct though, but only as a yardstick. It's likely, although not at all certain that it'll need an engine refresh somewhere about this time. Maybe before, but maybe way after. Buy on condition.
Bert
The 100k rebuild thing is correct though, but only as a yardstick. It's likely, although not at all certain that it'll need an engine refresh somewhere about this time. Maybe before, but maybe way after. Buy on condition.
Bert
Just tell him to source a good low mileage example with no leak issues or one that has had a decent rebuild.
The 964 will never be as quick as a TVR but it is more car if you know what I mean. I certainly do not regret the move and indeed the slower [older] Porsche suits my driving style over the more twitchy Tuscan (ok, I am another captain slow!
).
The TVR will probably, in the long run, cost more to service and is by no means any Honda when it comes to engine reliabilty. That said, I still love them to bits!!!
The 964 will never be as quick as a TVR but it is more car if you know what I mean. I certainly do not regret the move and indeed the slower [older] Porsche suits my driving style over the more twitchy Tuscan (ok, I am another captain slow!
).The TVR will probably, in the long run, cost more to service and is by no means any Honda when it comes to engine reliabilty. That said, I still love them to bits!!!
leylandracer said:
Our lads thinking of buying a 911 (964) he was all set with his mind made up until he heard some bad stories with engine rebuilds etc? surly they cannot be that bad, (German Engineering)
Any advice with things to look out for would be good? they dont seem badly priced but is there a reason? the other cars he is maybe considering are BMW M3, TVR Cerbera(4.2,4.5 V8)
Cheers
Steve
I've had one and I must admit the early ones were plagued with oil leaks, however I never realised that meant they needed a rebuild .... as in parts worn. Any advice with things to look out for would be good? they dont seem badly priced but is there a reason? the other cars he is maybe considering are BMW M3, TVR Cerbera(4.2,4.5 V8)
Cheers
Steve
It was the gaskets used (or lack of them I should say) that caused the leaks. I know later 92 model onwards (check the chassis No, not the year of registration) had the engine leaks sorted.
As far as I was aware even if they leaked, as long as you kept the oil levels up the engine was fine. Let them drop and then you had trouble.
I personally have not heard previously that all 964 engines needed a rebuild at tops 100K.
leylandracer said:
Looking at the 993 prices, they seem to go for a bit more money then the 964? Are they any better? Showing my ignorance with Porsches i know :-(
In my experience no, the whole "the 993 engine is better" is a myth, they still suffer from leaks between head to barrel and barrel to crankcase, mine also had through bolt leaks (which everyone assured me the modified seals fitted to the 993 had cured the problem . . . ) The one benefit of the 993 engine over the 964 is the hydraulic tappets (but they've been known to fail as well . . . )
If you find a car that ticks all your boxes, get it thoroughly inspected, including a leakdown test and a full report on the condition of the engine and ANY engine/gearbox leaks.
Wozy68 said:
I personally have not heard previously that all 964 engines needed a rebuild at tops 100K.
BertBert said:
The 100k rebuild thing is correct though, but only as a yardstick. It's likely, although not at all certain that it'll need an engine refresh somewhere about this time. Maybe before, but maybe way after. Buy on condition.
Bert
Bert
Slippydiff said:
leylandracer said:
Looking at the 993 prices, they seem to go for a bit more money then the 964? Are they any better? Showing my ignorance with Porsches i know :-(
In my experience no, the whole "the 993 engine is better" is a myth, they still suffer from leaks between head to barrel and barrel to crankcase, mine also had through bolt leaks (which everyone assured me the modified seals fitted to the 993 had cured the problem . . . ) The one benefit of the 993 engine over the 964 is the hydraulic tappets (but they've been known to fail as well . . . )
If you find a car that ticks all your boxes, get it thoroughly inspected, including a leakdown test and a full report on the condition of the engine and ANY engine/gearbox leaks.
You might prefer the look and older-skool handling of the 964, but that's it.
However the interior is the same - don't let that fool you
Orangecurry said:
The 993 is significantly better than 964 in every technical respect. There is no perceived or actual evidence of 993 engines needing a rebuild at 100k (or any other mileage) for instance. The rear axle is a huge step forward, and... well... everything else.
You might prefer the look and older-skool handling of the 964, but that's it.
However the interior is the same - don't let that fool you
On the contrary, my 993 RS required a build at 60K miles for all the afforementioned reasons.You might prefer the look and older-skool handling of the 964, but that's it.
However the interior is the same - don't let that fool you
Whilst you may not buy into the whole N rated "myth", I don't buy into the whole "the 993 was a better car than the 964" "myth".
Oh, and do please quantify "significantly better" . . .
The 993 was nothing more than a hastily cobbled together evolution of the 964 (with some Japanese manufacturing input ... hence the failed door check strap welds, corroding windscreen apertures, hopeless headlights, "unfinished" look to the lower section of the front bumper ...) Shall I continue
and whilst it's rear axle may have given an improvement in NVH, beyond that a non-varioram 993 was little more than a re-bodied 964. Don't be fooled by Porsches press blurb or what you've read in the motoring press.
Last of the aircooled cars it may have been, but the best ?
964s are around 20 years old. Clearly they are going to need some maintenance to stay in shape, and you need to buy carefully (same as any car worth money really). PPI would be a very good idea.
But I do find the posts implying that they're made of glass and break at the slightest hint of trouble frustrating. My 964 is / was an extremely reliable car - yes it needed things fixing, and yes it had a top end rebuild before I got it (at 120k miles - I was told it was primarly to cure oil leaks). But even today, with around 185k on the clock and 22 years old - I still think of it as an extremely reliable car. If I fancied driving down to the south of france I'd be more than happy to take the 964 and be fully confident it would get me there and back without any problems.
I'm sure there are a lot of uncared for examples out there - it's inevitable with any car, let alone cars of this age. But buy carefully and they are fantastic cars and very well built. Contrary to popular belief, they do not all leak oil like a sieve either. Mine might have before I bought it - no idea - but it's been absolutely fine in the last 65k miles.
But I do find the posts implying that they're made of glass and break at the slightest hint of trouble frustrating. My 964 is / was an extremely reliable car - yes it needed things fixing, and yes it had a top end rebuild before I got it (at 120k miles - I was told it was primarly to cure oil leaks). But even today, with around 185k on the clock and 22 years old - I still think of it as an extremely reliable car. If I fancied driving down to the south of france I'd be more than happy to take the 964 and be fully confident it would get me there and back without any problems.
I'm sure there are a lot of uncared for examples out there - it's inevitable with any car, let alone cars of this age. But buy carefully and they are fantastic cars and very well built. Contrary to popular belief, they do not all leak oil like a sieve either. Mine might have before I bought it - no idea - but it's been absolutely fine in the last 65k miles.
Orangecurry said:
Your 993 engine rebuild at 60k is exceptionally unusual, but then it wasn't the standard 3.6 was it?
I didn't say it was a "rebuild", I said it was a "build", the primary reason for which was for the rectification of oil leaks. No pistons, rings or barrels were replaced, however upon inspection it was discovered that several valves and a cam shaft required replacement.
Once stripped the leaks were found to be from the through bolt seals, the cylinder base gaskets and cylinder head gaskets.
Orangecurry said:
I have no idea about rebuilds on the 3.8, but that's not what the OP asked
How true, that increased bore dimension of the 3.8 makes ALL the difference doesn't it ? 
But you're missing the point of my post, the 993 3.6 engine is just as susceptable to oil leaks as a rebuilt (with modified/upgraded/supeceeded seals gaskets) 3.6 engine in 964.
But as Davek rightly points out, there's nothing at all wrong with the 964 engine (and to that end I've run three 964 RSs and none of them leaked a drop of oil)
As a 993 owner you'll also know that the 993 RS engine used a different method of attaching/securing the cam drive sprockets to the cam. It was such a brilliant design it allowed the cam timing to slip, which in turn meant very few of the 993 RSs actually produced the power claimed for them. The fix ? fit the vernier cam drives from the earlier (and inferior) 964 . . .
You seem to be under the impression that just because it's newer, it must mean its better. In many instances with the 993 that proved to not be the case
Slippydiff said:
Orangecurry said:
I have no idea about rebuilds on the 3.8, but that's not what the OP asked
How true, that increased bore dimension of the 3.8 makes ALL the difference doesn't it ? .....
As a 993 owner you'll also know that the 993 RS engine used a different method of attaching/securing the cam drive sprockets to the cam. It was such a brilliant design it allowed the cam timing to slip...
i had a dry early 964 ie pre head gasket mod and it remained dry until i sold it at around 75k miles
i would not buy one or any other rear engined porsche without getting a leakdown and compression test regardless of paper trail, provenance etc. its just one of those things that must be done.
its just one of those things that you may or may not be affected by and its only relevant to you if it affects your car and no stats or myths will ever be specific to your car
i would not buy one or any other rear engined porsche without getting a leakdown and compression test regardless of paper trail, provenance etc. its just one of those things that must be done.
its just one of those things that you may or may not be affected by and its only relevant to you if it affects your car and no stats or myths will ever be specific to your car
Orangecurry said:
The 993 is significantly better than 964 in every technical respect. There is no perceived or actual evidence of 993 engines needing a rebuild at 100k (or any other mileage) for instance. The rear axle is a huge step forward, and... well... everything else.
You might prefer the look and older-skool handling of the 964, but that's it.
However the interior is the same - don't let that fool you
www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1026987&mid=51675&nmt=993+Engine+failures+%3FYou might prefer the look and older-skool handling of the 964, but that's it.
However the interior is the same - don't let that fool you
You couldn't make this stuff up. Just perfect timing (unlike like that on most 993 RSs) . . . .
Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 9th July 23:05
Slippydiff said:
www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&f=48...
You couldn't make this stuff up. Just perfect timing (unlike like that on most 993 RSs) . . . .
Blimey, I've been a Porsche fan for years. Never knew about the 993 engine problems before. You couldn't make this stuff up. Just perfect timing (unlike like that on most 993 RSs) . . . .
Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 9th July 23:05
...and my last 964 had close to 150k miles, had NOT had a rebuilt nor did it need one. Still pulled to thd rev limiter in 5th on the autobahn. The "964s need a rebuild at 100k miles" is just nonsense.
Some may do, some may have had a rebuild earlier, and there's plenty that won't have. They are extremely well made and robust. More so than the 993 IMHO.
Some may do, some may have had a rebuild earlier, and there's plenty that won't have. They are extremely well made and robust. More so than the 993 IMHO.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff