Party Wall Act - help!
Discussion
Could anyone help settle an argument for me?
We're basically in disagreement about whether a wall which forms part of a garage is in fact a party wall.
The plan shows a solid line which is effectively the outer wall of the garage and the boundary. However, the boundary itself is owned by the neighbouring house.
There is a wall which runs in front of the garage and butts up to it, and a fence at the other side of the garage which form the boundary.
The argument goes that the garage wall butts up to the boundary, and although there is no other structure separating the plots it's not a boundary wall because it's not astride the boundary line.
Can the garage be demolished without notifying the neighbours in writing under the act? How about leaving the outside wall standing and removing the roof and other three?
thanks in advance
Darren
(and yes, I need to speak to a surveyor - will do first thing in the am)
We're basically in disagreement about whether a wall which forms part of a garage is in fact a party wall.
The plan shows a solid line which is effectively the outer wall of the garage and the boundary. However, the boundary itself is owned by the neighbouring house.
There is a wall which runs in front of the garage and butts up to it, and a fence at the other side of the garage which form the boundary.
The argument goes that the garage wall butts up to the boundary, and although there is no other structure separating the plots it's not a boundary wall because it's not astride the boundary line.
Can the garage be demolished without notifying the neighbours in writing under the act? How about leaving the outside wall standing and removing the roof and other three?
thanks in advance
Darren
(and yes, I need to speak to a surveyor - will do first thing in the am)
blackcab said:
Fences can also be party walls and the exact position of the boundary is unlikely to be clear from an OS plan, highly unlikely a garage wall as you describe would be a party wall
There isn't a fence in that part of the garden, though you're right in that the OS map probably isn't detailed enough. So we can just knock the wall down (assuming it can be done from this side without trespassing) despite it being a couple of inches (maximum) inside the centre line of the boundary?
It's not quite clear from you description what the exact situation is, so excuse me if I make any wrong assumptions.
If your garage wall is built wholly on your land and is not astride the boundaary, then it is not a traditional (type A ) Party Wall. You say that there are no structures on the other side of the wall, therefore it cannot be a type B Party Wall either. (Type B Party Wall is created when a neighbour encloses on an independant wall, thereby making it a shared wall)
There would be no requirement to serve Notice under the Act for the demolition of your independant garage, as long as you are not propsing to undertake any of the notifiable works, detailed in section 2(2) of the Act. Don't forget that sections 6(1) & 6(2) of the Act also olbige you to serve Notice if any proposed excavations fall within the presctribed distances & depths of neighbouring structures.
Finally, it is possible to leave the flank wall of the garage as the boundary wall (after removing the roof and other three walls) although you should satisfy yourself that the retained wall will be structurally sound to support itself.
HTH.
If your garage wall is built wholly on your land and is not astride the boundaary, then it is not a traditional (type A ) Party Wall. You say that there are no structures on the other side of the wall, therefore it cannot be a type B Party Wall either. (Type B Party Wall is created when a neighbour encloses on an independant wall, thereby making it a shared wall)
There would be no requirement to serve Notice under the Act for the demolition of your independant garage, as long as you are not propsing to undertake any of the notifiable works, detailed in section 2(2) of the Act. Don't forget that sections 6(1) & 6(2) of the Act also olbige you to serve Notice if any proposed excavations fall within the presctribed distances & depths of neighbouring structures.
Finally, it is possible to leave the flank wall of the garage as the boundary wall (after removing the roof and other three walls) although you should satisfy yourself that the retained wall will be structurally sound to support itself.
HTH.
Mandat said:
It's not quite clear from you description what the exact situation is, so excuse me if I make any wrong assumptions.
If your garage wall is built wholly on your land and is not astride the boundaary, then it is not a traditional (type A ) Party Wall. You say that there are no structures on the other side of the wall, therefore it cannot be a type B Party Wall either. (Type B Party Wall is created when a neighbour encloses on an independant wall, thereby making it a shared wall)
There would be no requirement to serve Notice under the Act for the demolition of your independant garage, as long as you are not propsing to undertake any of the notifiable works, detailed in section 2(2) of the Act. Don't forget that sections 6(1) & 6(2) of the Act also olbige you to serve Notice if any proposed excavations fall within the presctribed distances & depths of neighbouring structures.
Finally, it is possible to leave the flank wall of the garage as the boundary wall (after removing the roof and other three walls) although you should satisfy yourself that the retained wall will be structurally sound to support itself.
HTH.
Thanks very much, that certainly does help. If your garage wall is built wholly on your land and is not astride the boundaary, then it is not a traditional (type A ) Party Wall. You say that there are no structures on the other side of the wall, therefore it cannot be a type B Party Wall either. (Type B Party Wall is created when a neighbour encloses on an independant wall, thereby making it a shared wall)
There would be no requirement to serve Notice under the Act for the demolition of your independant garage, as long as you are not propsing to undertake any of the notifiable works, detailed in section 2(2) of the Act. Don't forget that sections 6(1) & 6(2) of the Act also olbige you to serve Notice if any proposed excavations fall within the presctribed distances & depths of neighbouring structures.
Finally, it is possible to leave the flank wall of the garage as the boundary wall (after removing the roof and other three walls) although you should satisfy yourself that the retained wall will be structurally sound to support itself.
HTH.
The only debate that's left is whether the wall is on the boundary or not. We're pretty convinced it's entirely on our side and that it has to be since it's their boundary.
Their fence is attached to the wall, but on the edge not in the centre.
The building work is about a metre inside our boundary at the closest point, and their property is about 2.5m the other side of it. The foundations won't be deep enough to fall into the 45' rule so we don't believe any of the sections you mention apply either.
So, the only thing I'm not sure of is a) How I'm absolutely 100% sure the wall isn't on the boundary and b) How I prove it to the neighbours.
You're getting into the realms of a boundary dispute if you and your neighbour cannot agree on the status of the boundary conditions. Your and/or their property Deeds may confim the boundary status but if not, visual clues of the existing arrangements may assist with making a determination.
A local Party Wall Surveyor should be able to assist in this respect. Have a search on the Pyramus & Thisbe website ( http://www.partywalls.org.uk/members/index.php) for someone local to you. The P&T club is a professional organisation for Surveyors specialising in Party Wall matters.
A local Party Wall Surveyor should be able to assist in this respect. Have a search on the Pyramus & Thisbe website ( http://www.partywalls.org.uk/members/index.php) for someone local to you. The P&T club is a professional organisation for Surveyors specialising in Party Wall matters.
Mandat said:
You're getting into the realms of a boundary dispute if you and your neighbour cannot agree on the status of the boundary conditions. Your and/or their property Deeds may confim the boundary status but if not, visual clues of the existing arrangements may assist with making a determination.
A local Party Wall Surveyor should be able to assist in this respect. Have a search on the Pyramus & Thisbe website ( http://www.partywalls.org.uk/members/index.php) for someone local to you. The P&T club is a professional organisation for Surveyors specialising in Party Wall matters.
Thank you very much for all of your help. A local Party Wall Surveyor should be able to assist in this respect. Have a search on the Pyramus & Thisbe website ( http://www.partywalls.org.uk/members/index.php) for someone local to you. The P&T club is a professional organisation for Surveyors specialising in Party Wall matters.
There's someone literally just down the road listed - I'll give them a call tomorrow.
Not just aiming at the OP but I cannot emphasise enough just how important it is to get an agreement in place before you do anything.
That's an agreement on the status of the wall or the line of the boundary or the condition of their fence and garden or the colour of mud or even a party wall award if necessary.
However friendly and easy things may seem, they turn so quickly over the slightest thing. At least that's my experience of boundary disputes. Even if diplomatic relations were broken off previously with the neighbours there are ways to protect yourself.
The P & T chap will give you the right guidance and should make recommedations about schedules of condition and so on.
Investing a few quid now on fees will potentially save more than you could possibly imagine later on.
That's an agreement on the status of the wall or the line of the boundary or the condition of their fence and garden or the colour of mud or even a party wall award if necessary.
However friendly and easy things may seem, they turn so quickly over the slightest thing. At least that's my experience of boundary disputes. Even if diplomatic relations were broken off previously with the neighbours there are ways to protect yourself.
The P & T chap will give you the right guidance and should make recommedations about schedules of condition and so on.
Investing a few quid now on fees will potentially save more than you could possibly imagine later on.
silverthorn2151 said:
Not just aiming at the OP but I cannot emphasise enough just how important it is to get an agreement in place before you do anything.
That's an agreement on the status of the wall or the line of the boundary or the condition of their fence and garden or the colour of mud or even a party wall award if necessary.
However friendly and easy things may seem, they turn so quickly over the slightest thing. At least that's my experience of boundary disputes. Even if diplomatic relations were broken off previously with the neighbours there are ways to protect yourself.
The P & T chap will give you the right guidance and should make recommedations about schedules of condition and so on.
Investing a few quid now on fees will potentially save more than you could possibly imagine later on.
Very sound advice. I'm just waiting for a call back. That's an agreement on the status of the wall or the line of the boundary or the condition of their fence and garden or the colour of mud or even a party wall award if necessary.
However friendly and easy things may seem, they turn so quickly over the slightest thing. At least that's my experience of boundary disputes. Even if diplomatic relations were broken off previously with the neighbours there are ways to protect yourself.
The P & T chap will give you the right guidance and should make recommedations about schedules of condition and so on.
Investing a few quid now on fees will potentially save more than you could possibly imagine later on.
Having looked at the boundary this morning, it's even more confusing than ever. At the front of the house is a hedge and under that a small wall. We believe that shows the line of the boundary. The wall is offset so that the centre line of the garage wall touches the smaller boundary wall but at it's edge - not on the centre line and therefore is entirely within the plot.
However, at the rear of the house, their fence is flush with the garage wall, and there is a gate and wooden fencing attached to the wall at a 90 degree angle. I assume the rear fence is located for aesthetic reasons and it proabably technically on our plot.
Do we just back down, apply for permission through the boundary wall act anyway and delay by a month, even if it's not required to avoid a boundary dispute?
Some time ago I remember I entered into am internet 'discussion' getting it wrong on this type of scenario - garage walls on the boundary - but a very experienced legal property expert assured me that if the garage was built with the house, there is an assumption that it will NOT be a party wall (just as any gutter overhang etc. will have an automatic easement). So unless the garage wall has been incorporated or attached to for more than 20 years (prescriptive rights) or otherwise subject of a PWA agreement, you can do what you like. If the garage was built later your neighbour would have to prove that it wasn't entirely on your land - impossible! The neighbour can huff and puff all they like, but until they have convinced a judge that it is a PW and have an injunction (which they are unlikely to waste money on, or achieve anyway), you can ignore them. But all the advice above is good.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Some time ago I remember I entered into am internet 'discussion' getting it wrong on this type of scenario - garage walls on the boundary - but a very experienced legal property expert assured me that if the garage was built with the house, there is an assumption that it will NOT be a party wall (just as any gutter overhang etc. will have an automatic easement). So unless the garage wall has been incorporated or attached to for more than 20 years (prescriptive rights) or otherwise subject of a PWA agreement, you can do what you like. If the garage was built later your neighbour would have to prove that it wasn't entirely on your land - impossible! The neighbour can huff and puff all they like, but until they have convinced a judge that it is a PW and have an injunction (which they are unlikely to waste money on, or achieve anyway), you can ignore them. But all the advice above is good.
The garage was built with the house 30 years ago. I assume the fence has been a fixture ever since. I suppose the problem would be that the minute we demolish the wall then any damage which they believe is caused by us doing so (disturbing their fence, potentially plants etc) would be our problem, and the court would look on it dimly if ever it got that far, particularly if it is determined to be a party wall and we hadn't followed protocol.
_DeeJay_ said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Some time ago I remember I entered into am internet 'discussion' getting it wrong on this type of scenario - garage walls on the boundary - but a very experienced legal property expert assured me that if the garage was built with the house, there is an assumption that it will NOT be a party wall (just as any gutter overhang etc. will have an automatic easement). So unless the garage wall has been incorporated or attached to for more than 20 years (prescriptive rights) or otherwise subject of a PWA agreement, you can do what you like. If the garage was built later your neighbour would have to prove that it wasn't entirely on your land - impossible! The neighbour can huff and puff all they like, but until they have convinced a judge that it is a PW and have an injunction (which they are unlikely to waste money on, or achieve anyway), you can ignore them. But all the advice above is good.
The garage was built with the house 30 years ago. I assume the fence has been a fixture ever since. I suppose the problem would be that the minute we demolish the wall then any damage which they believe is caused by us doing so (disturbing their fence, potentially plants etc) would be our problem, and the court would look on it dimly if ever it got that far, particularly if it is determined to be a party wall and we hadn't followed protocol.
If removing the wall would remove a necessary support to which they do have a right, then I would assume supplying a suitable alternative, if necessary, would suffice. i.e. another fence post!
If you damaged their property during the course of any works you would be liable. If you have house insurance you can talk to your insurers about the additional liability that might arise during the course of your works - they might say you are covered, they might want a small additional premium - you should always inform your insurers about building work. Also you probably have legal protection insurance that you could use if they tried to sue. I think the issue with liability under failure to follow the PWA is more that there is a lower burden of proof required that your works did cause the damage. You could protect yourself by getting a surveyor to draw up a pre-works condition report & by taking photos.
it's impossible to tell the boundary from an OS plan, a line drawn on that will be a couple of mm width - scale that up and it will be half a meter wide.
For more info about boundary walls etc try having a read of http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningan...
For more info about boundary walls etc try having a read of http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningan...
Mr GrimNasty said:
Yes, but in this type of situation (I was reliably told!) it almost certainly doesn't matter. With the absence of anything to the contrary in the title deeds, the default position is not party wall, wall is assumed to be entirely on his own property.
You're talking about a Boundary not a Party Wall.eps said:
Is it possible to post photos of any of this?
I can picture your garage, but does the other property not have a garage as well? Is it in the area near your garage?
I can probably get some taken in the morning. However, in the meantime I'll attempt to describe it. I can picture your garage, but does the other property not have a garage as well? Is it in the area near your garage?
When looking at the front of both properties, there is our property on the left with a garage to the right of it.
The outside wall of the garage has a wall running up to it and a fence attached to the back of it to separate the plots.
Attached to the garage wall is the neighbours fence which runs between our garage wall and their house and houses a gate to let them into their back garden.
I've attached a picture which is crude, but should show what I mean.
Edited by _DeeJay_ on Tuesday 12th July 22:44
eps said:
You're talking about a Boundary not a Party Wall.
Errr definitely not!The only problem you have OP is that you cannot permanently remove any right to support that they have for their fence/gate since presumably it was originally built like that or they have been like that for at least 20 years.
Edited by Mr GrimNasty on Tuesday 12th July 22:53
Bungleaio said:
it's impossible to tell the boundary from an OS plan, a line drawn on that will be a couple of mm width - scale that up and it will be half a meter wide.
For more info about boundary walls etc try having a read of http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningan...
I've read it, didn't really help as it's not specific enough. For more info about boundary walls etc try having a read of http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningan...
I realise the OS plan isn't accurate enough. However, I'm not sure how to get an accurate assessment of the situation.
I understand that it's unlikely that the wall is a boundary wall because it'd be a relatively stupid thing to do when building the properties. However, when I spoke to the surveyor he said it was uncommon but not unknown.
Speaking of which, he's away at the other end of the country at the moment so wasn't able to actually look at the site to make an accurate assessment. Time to find someone else I expect...
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