Reverse engineering?
Discussion
Does anyone know if the big car companies pull each others cars to bits looking at the technology? I wonder how many they buy. I suppose there might be more interesting stuff in new and expensive cars. I wonder if it is worth them pulling apart things like a Veyron or the latest Ferrari or Mclaren.
The idea of a geek sitting around at Vauxhall HQ examining the guts of a Ford wiper motor through a magnifying glass amuses me....
The idea of a geek sitting around at Vauxhall HQ examining the guts of a Ford wiper motor through a magnifying glass amuses me....
vexed said:
Does anyone know if the big car companies pull each others cars to bits looking at the technology? I wonder how many they buy. I suppose there might be more interesting stuff in new and expensive cars. I wonder if it is worth them pulling apart things like a Veyron or the latest Ferrari or Mclaren.
The idea of a geek sitting around at Vauxhall HQ examining the guts of a Ford wiper motor through a magnifying glass amuses me....
They definitely do. I believe that the major manufacturers have arrangements whereby they agree to supply each other with examples of their cars that can be used to strip down. Or they simply buy them.The idea of a geek sitting around at Vauxhall HQ examining the guts of a Ford wiper motor through a magnifying glass amuses me....
It's all above board. The key innovations would be patented anyway and any attempt to copy would be very quickly found out - they wouldn't risk it.
However, I can't see VW giving out Veyrons; the production run is too small, and unit cost too high, to allow it.
When Toyota launched the original Lexus LS in (I think) 1990, GM got hold of one of the earliest cars, took it into their R&D department and stripped it down to find out how Toyota did it. Their conclusion was that GM simply did not have the capability to make a car of equivalent quality.
(We're used to seeing old LS barges in SOTW, and thinking of them as rather boring. But the impact of that first generation LS was tremendous. Toyota effectively threw a hand grenade into the luxury car market. The Germans, and Jaguar, could no longer rely on customers' brand loyalty. Suddenly they were on the back foot, and had to innovate. Things were never the same.)
I read an article in Autocar a few years ago that featured an independent firm that tore down every new model, then sold data to the rival manufacturers, component by component.
Merc and BMW have/had a reciprocal agreement where they would trade new models for research purposes IIRC.
Plenty of manufacturers have admitted over the years that they 'benchmark' their new models against key rivals.
Merc and BMW have/had a reciprocal agreement where they would trade new models for research purposes IIRC.
Plenty of manufacturers have admitted over the years that they 'benchmark' their new models against key rivals.
They do indeed. No idea how many cars are bought ( varies between OEM I guess) but most of the competitors in the segment will be looked at.
vexed said:
The idea of a geek sitting around at Vauxhall HQ examining the guts of a Ford wiper motor through a magnifying glass amuses me....
I'm not a geek, but you're not far off what goes on. I've never used a microscope to investigate parts though!I think the best known case of this is when Ford bought a MINI to try and find out how they could be sold so cheap.
The boss at MINI had set an arbitrary sale price and explained to the company that it would be sold for that price regardless. Nobody really knows if they were making a profit or not. Some say a slight loss, some say perhaps £30.00 on each car. Ford took it to pieces and checked every part and came to the conclusion that even they - FORD - could not build it for the price it was being sold at so decided not to compete directly in that size bracket.
The boss at MINI had set an arbitrary sale price and explained to the company that it would be sold for that price regardless. Nobody really knows if they were making a profit or not. Some say a slight loss, some say perhaps £30.00 on each car. Ford took it to pieces and checked every part and came to the conclusion that even they - FORD - could not build it for the price it was being sold at so decided not to compete directly in that size bracket.
Not just the car companies but the whole component industry.
I used to work in a Design for Manufacture Department, whose job was to go and help Lucas Industries Design Teams design better, cheaper, higher quality etc.
We used to turn up to "Workshops" with a box of the competitors products.
Our "training" example for Parts Count Reduction was a Rear wiper motor that we had lost the business on.
We'd do an A Vs B analysis and come up with the 30% design efficiency, ask them why we can't get rid of 70% of the parts, and they'd have a go and get to 60%. Then we'd get the competion and they'd see that the competitor products had 95% design efficiency. Then we'd get onto their product, and we'd get them to remove 50% of the cost. Then the Design Manager would turn up with the competitors product and rant that we hadn't got enough cost out.
A mate worked for Puegeot Talbot in Ryton, and they used to get all the competitor cars into a room and get all the staff to inspect it.
I used to work in a Design for Manufacture Department, whose job was to go and help Lucas Industries Design Teams design better, cheaper, higher quality etc.
We used to turn up to "Workshops" with a box of the competitors products.
Our "training" example for Parts Count Reduction was a Rear wiper motor that we had lost the business on.
We'd do an A Vs B analysis and come up with the 30% design efficiency, ask them why we can't get rid of 70% of the parts, and they'd have a go and get to 60%. Then we'd get the competion and they'd see that the competitor products had 95% design efficiency. Then we'd get onto their product, and we'd get them to remove 50% of the cost. Then the Design Manager would turn up with the competitors product and rant that we hadn't got enough cost out.
A mate worked for Puegeot Talbot in Ryton, and they used to get all the competitor cars into a room and get all the staff to inspect it.
It does happen and is very well known.
"A gutted Prius. A dismantled VW Touareg. Chryslers and Hondas, BMWs and Fords in a reverse engineering graveyard."
Full article: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown....
"A gutted Prius. A dismantled VW Touareg. Chryslers and Hondas, BMWs and Fords in a reverse engineering graveyard."
Full article: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown....
Does happen, and yes most manufacturers even give their cars away to rivals for them to strip down under a reciprocal agreement.
It isn't just subterfuge - a key reason for doing this is to understand if another manufacturer is infringing any of your patents or other IP. This way the tear-down pays for itself pretty quick!
It isn't just subterfuge - a key reason for doing this is to understand if another manufacturer is infringing any of your patents or other IP. This way the tear-down pays for itself pretty quick!
We also do it for quality benchmarking. The cars are stripped down with every gap, bolt torque and defect being noted, the aim being to see how well and consistently each manufacturer can assemble the vehicles.
The results tend to be very interesting and an insight into how much or the perceived build quality of different models is fact and how much is based on historical reputation, public opinion etc. Manufacturers who are perceived to have very good build quality are often turning out very badly assembled vehicles and vice versa. You never see that reflected in subjective customer satisfaction surveys though!
The results tend to be very interesting and an insight into how much or the perceived build quality of different models is fact and how much is based on historical reputation, public opinion etc. Manufacturers who are perceived to have very good build quality are often turning out very badly assembled vehicles and vice versa. You never see that reflected in subjective customer satisfaction surveys though!
ejenner said:
I think the best known case of this is when Ford bought a MINI to try and find out how they could be sold so cheap.
The boss at MINI had set an arbitrary sale price and explained to the company that it would be sold for that price regardless. Nobody really knows if they were making a profit or not. Some say a slight loss, some say perhaps £30.00 on each car. Ford took it to pieces and checked every part and came to the conclusion that even they - FORD - could not build it for the price it was being sold at so decided not to compete directly in that size bracket.
I think you'll find it was the BMC Mini and not the MINI. That is why they made the SDL, Cooper, Cooper S and The boss at MINI had set an arbitrary sale price and explained to the company that it would be sold for that price regardless. Nobody really knows if they were making a profit or not. Some say a slight loss, some say perhaps £30.00 on each car. Ford took it to pieces and checked every part and came to the conclusion that even they - FORD - could not build it for the price it was being sold at so decided not to compete directly in that size bracket.
Clubman. The former three were more luxury or more sporty, which could be built for not much more than a standard mini yet at a much higher price, and the Clubman was built with a cheaper too make front (not much cheaper, but cheaper never the less) and sold as a modernized model and could also be sold at a higher price. Ford did make a competitor for the Mini, which believe it or not, was the Cortina.
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