Why the hate for single clutch automated manuals?
Discussion
For the record, I love a good manual, appreciate the advantages of a full auto (but wouldn't really want one) and like DSG/PDK boxes, however...
In the past few weeks I've had the fortune of firstly tracking a number of 911's and R8s, the former with PDK and the latter with a single clutch automated manual (r-tronic or something), and yesterday an M3 CSL. In short, I love the single clutch automated gearboxes.
Don't get me wrong, the PDK / DSG boxes are amazing bits of technology, but they completely remove all driver input, other than pressing a button.
Sure, the single clutch boxes can be jerky, but if you know how to drive (which we of course all do) you can drive around that. Also I understand why people complain about surging when pulling off or parking, but again if you've a tiny amount of car control these can be overcome without issue.
What I really liked about the SMG type gearboxes was gear changes are still an event, especially when pushing on. There was one corner on the track where you were pretty much on the limit, and if you tried to change gear mid corner in the SMG type box you'd have to be prepared to catch the slide after the excellent thump it gave. The PDK boxes were so smooth, they let you shift flat out without drama.
To me, the single clutch boxes are a really good blend of automation, but still leaving loads of driver involvement, and now I would certainly not write off a car because of one. Dual clutch on the other hand... give me a good manual any day.
In the past few weeks I've had the fortune of firstly tracking a number of 911's and R8s, the former with PDK and the latter with a single clutch automated manual (r-tronic or something), and yesterday an M3 CSL. In short, I love the single clutch automated gearboxes.
Don't get me wrong, the PDK / DSG boxes are amazing bits of technology, but they completely remove all driver input, other than pressing a button.
Sure, the single clutch boxes can be jerky, but if you know how to drive (which we of course all do) you can drive around that. Also I understand why people complain about surging when pulling off or parking, but again if you've a tiny amount of car control these can be overcome without issue.
What I really liked about the SMG type gearboxes was gear changes are still an event, especially when pushing on. There was one corner on the track where you were pretty much on the limit, and if you tried to change gear mid corner in the SMG type box you'd have to be prepared to catch the slide after the excellent thump it gave. The PDK boxes were so smooth, they let you shift flat out without drama.
To me, the single clutch boxes are a really good blend of automation, but still leaving loads of driver involvement, and now I would certainly not write off a car because of one. Dual clutch on the other hand... give me a good manual any day.
Spot on. I was working at Alfa when the selespeed came out and I loved the fact that you had to learn to drive it smoothly. The little lift on the gas as you change up, never using full auto. When the R tronic came out on the R8 it was deja vu all over again ( 
) great being able to feel a bit of involvement ( and, I'm ashamed to admit, show off to customers who think it'll be jerky by driving smoothly and letting them try). I love my manual car and I have a real soft spot for a diesel with dsg (changing up early, keeping it right in the torque can make indecent progress in a 2.0 TDi A3). Single clutch "autos" are manuals without clutch pedals, and if you think of them like that they make sense.
) great being able to feel a bit of involvement ( and, I'm ashamed to admit, show off to customers who think it'll be jerky by driving smoothly and letting them try). I love my manual car and I have a real soft spot for a diesel with dsg (changing up early, keeping it right in the torque can make indecent progress in a 2.0 TDi A3). Single clutch "autos" are manuals without clutch pedals, and if you think of them like that they make sense.jon- said:
Why the hate for single clutch automated manuals?
You've listed a number of 'characteristics' that you have to 'life with' or 'drive around':jon- said:
the single clutch boxes can be jerky, but ... you can drive around that.
jon- said:
I understand why people complain about surging when pulling off or parking, but ... these can be overcome
jon- said:
if you tried to change gear mid corner in the SMG type box ... you'd have to be prepared to catch the slide
To some people they add character, but to others they are faults. It's a matter of opinion. 
jon- said:
What I really liked about the SMG type gearboxes was gear changes are still an event, especially when pushing on. There was one corner on the track where you were pretty much on the limit, and if you tried to change gear mid corner in the SMG type box you'd have to be prepared to catch the slide after the excellent thump it gave. The PDK boxes were so smooth, they let you shift flat out without drama.
To me, the single clutch boxes are a really good blend of automation, but still leaving loads of driver involvement, and now I would certainly not write off a car because of one. Dual clutch on the other hand... give me a good manual any day.
If you want 'involvement' and gear changes to be 'an event' then why not just stick with full manual?To me, the single clutch boxes are a really good blend of automation, but still leaving loads of driver involvement, and now I would certainly not write off a car because of one. Dual clutch on the other hand... give me a good manual any day.
You seem to be complaining that dual clutch boxes are too good at what they do - a completely irrational point of view.
Nagra said:
The thing about single clutch gearboxes like the R-tronic in the R8 is you still have to lift off the accelerator in order to get a smooth shift so you may as well use that 'pause' in performance to change gear yourself.
You don't have to though, you can keep your foot planted and accept the bump. That's why I loved them, it was up to you to how you wanted the shift (a lot like a manual), unlike the dsg boxes which were perfect no matter what you were doing.mrmr96 - fair point
Lucas Ayde - yes, that is essentially what I'm complaining about - it's not irrational, well, it shouldn't be to a petrol head! The thread however was started because there's a lot of hate for single clutch boxes (even on PH), and I don't get why.
The only one I've driven was in a 360. To me it felt like a badly executed solution, or like the technology was released before it had been developed properly.
Accelerate, pull the paddle, wait an instant, sudden loss of drive, involuntarily lean forward in seat, wait far, far too long, drive resumes with a thunk and thud back into seat again. Next gearchange.
Downshifts were OK, but upshifts were too clunky and too slow. Jeez, even the paddles on the CVT in a Honda Jazz change quicker and more smoothly, That's a completely different type of gearbox of course, but a reminder why I didn't like the single clutch auto in the 360.
I prefer a proper old fashioned auto, which nowadays generally wafts and changes smoothly, or a full manual which gives me more control of the speed, timing and clunkiness, and also gives me more tactile sensations to enjoy as well.
I never got the point of the single clutch automated box on the road. On track, OK, dab-dab on the paddles and you can concentrate on steering, throttle and brakes, but the manufacturers, particularly Ferrari, love to emphasise how fast their boxes could change gear. On the road, I don't care how fast it changes gear. Even if I'm pressing on, I'm not actually going to be in any kind of hurry where a 200millisecond shift is going to be a benefit. Rather just stick paddles on a proper auto box.
Pointless box, badly executed, IMO.
Accelerate, pull the paddle, wait an instant, sudden loss of drive, involuntarily lean forward in seat, wait far, far too long, drive resumes with a thunk and thud back into seat again. Next gearchange.
Downshifts were OK, but upshifts were too clunky and too slow. Jeez, even the paddles on the CVT in a Honda Jazz change quicker and more smoothly, That's a completely different type of gearbox of course, but a reminder why I didn't like the single clutch auto in the 360.
I prefer a proper old fashioned auto, which nowadays generally wafts and changes smoothly, or a full manual which gives me more control of the speed, timing and clunkiness, and also gives me more tactile sensations to enjoy as well.
I never got the point of the single clutch automated box on the road. On track, OK, dab-dab on the paddles and you can concentrate on steering, throttle and brakes, but the manufacturers, particularly Ferrari, love to emphasise how fast their boxes could change gear. On the road, I don't care how fast it changes gear. Even if I'm pressing on, I'm not actually going to be in any kind of hurry where a 200millisecond shift is going to be a benefit. Rather just stick paddles on a proper auto box.
Pointless box, badly executed, IMO.
I was pleasantly surprised at the smoothness of the single clutch box in the Lexus LFA. On the lower shift speed settings it was as smooth as most normal automatics, only when turned to maximum shift speed did it become abrupt - but that kind of added to the drama of the whole driving experience
andy665 said:
I was pleasantly surprised at the smoothness of the single clutch box in the Lexus LFA. On the lower shift speed settings it was as smooth as most normal automatics, only when turned to maximum shift speed did it become abrupt - but that kind of added to the drama of the whole driving experience
now that's a box I'd like to try.The egear on the Gallardo Superleggera in full force mode makes me giggle like a girl when it smacks you in the back
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