HANS, FIA8858 and scrutineering
Discussion
anyone got info on how scrutineering generally applies the HANS FIA regs to helmets? im about to head back over from the US for a couple of races and dont want to be left scrambling around for another helmet at the last minute due to rule interpretation.
my current helmet is SA2005 approved and manufactured in 2010. im using an FIA 8858-2002 HANS device with 8858-2002 tethers and 8858-2002 posts and anchors.
there isnt a silver FIA 8858-2002 sticker on the helmet however from looking at the FIA regs these stickers are only to show fitting to 8858-2002 spec by the original manufacturer and nothing more.
the regulation says clearly that having the manufacturer fit the posts is strongly recommended but not mandatory so it shouldnt be grounds for failure if you dont have it present.
the helmet section of the HANS guide says firstly, an FIA helmet conforming to 8858-2002 or 8860-2004 and fitted with tether posts shall be used, referring to FIA tech list 29 for further details. list 29 just details specifically all helmets approved under 8858-2002. any helmet that is 8860-2004 (or equivelant under technical list 25) is automatically ok providing it has either the HANS posts supplied and certified originally (like the schuberth helmets where they are embedded) OR fitted with posts and anchorages together that meet FIA 8858-2002
secondly that the tether anchorages must be positioned in accordance with 8858-2002. this is just a technical spec regarding physical location of the posts.
on both of these points i meet all criteria however ive had a few folks say there were refused on the grounds that they didnt have the silver sticker there on their helmet and while its all very well to feel like one knows the rules, we all know that this isnt worth a thing if the scrutineers feel you dont comply.
has anyone any feedback on how things have gone with your HANS system and silver or no silver FIA 8858-2002 stickers. it would be good to try and work out whether its something thats looked for or if the turn aways were anomolous.
my current helmet is SA2005 approved and manufactured in 2010. im using an FIA 8858-2002 HANS device with 8858-2002 tethers and 8858-2002 posts and anchors.
there isnt a silver FIA 8858-2002 sticker on the helmet however from looking at the FIA regs these stickers are only to show fitting to 8858-2002 spec by the original manufacturer and nothing more.
the regulation says clearly that having the manufacturer fit the posts is strongly recommended but not mandatory so it shouldnt be grounds for failure if you dont have it present.
the helmet section of the HANS guide says firstly, an FIA helmet conforming to 8858-2002 or 8860-2004 and fitted with tether posts shall be used, referring to FIA tech list 29 for further details. list 29 just details specifically all helmets approved under 8858-2002. any helmet that is 8860-2004 (or equivelant under technical list 25) is automatically ok providing it has either the HANS posts supplied and certified originally (like the schuberth helmets where they are embedded) OR fitted with posts and anchorages together that meet FIA 8858-2002
secondly that the tether anchorages must be positioned in accordance with 8858-2002. this is just a technical spec regarding physical location of the posts.
on both of these points i meet all criteria however ive had a few folks say there were refused on the grounds that they didnt have the silver sticker there on their helmet and while its all very well to feel like one knows the rules, we all know that this isnt worth a thing if the scrutineers feel you dont comply.
has anyone any feedback on how things have gone with your HANS system and silver or no silver FIA 8858-2002 stickers. it would be good to try and work out whether its something thats looked for or if the turn aways were anomolous.
Funny enough I got pulled at Spa a couple of weeks ago for not having the Silver sticker. I've done a few European 'international' rounds plus a lot of Toca and BGT weekends and it was the first time it was even mentioned.
The scrutineer basically said that it must have been painted over (actually it was stuck on inside the lid and he hadn't seen it), and that I would need it in future but not to worry for this round...
Sorry, probably not the answer you were looking for as you could still be unlucky with an over zealous scrutineer!
The scrutineer basically said that it must have been painted over (actually it was stuck on inside the lid and he hadn't seen it), and that I would need it in future but not to worry for this round...
Sorry, probably not the answer you were looking for as you could still be unlucky with an over zealous scrutineer!
Thanks for the reply. That's exactly what I was looking for.
While it would obviously be simpler if 100 posts had been made saying "no silver sticker and fine" it was info and experiences I was after even if it wasn't in line with my interpretations of the rules.
Once a trend is established it's often irrelevant what the actual ruling is.
I'll make some calls and see if anyone can fit another pair of posts and certify and if not look for another helmet.
While it would obviously be simpler if 100 posts had been made saying "no silver sticker and fine" it was info and experiences I was after even if it wasn't in line with my interpretations of the rules.
Once a trend is established it's often irrelevant what the actual ruling is.
I'll make some calls and see if anyone can fit another pair of posts and certify and if not look for another helmet.
Is a HANS device compulsory in the races you're planning to enter? If not you can present your helmet for scrutineering without the HANS device and if asked 'do you use a HANS', you say 'no'. Additionally, i would carry a copy of the reg that states that fitting of the posts by the manufacturer is recommended, but not compulsory.
My experience is with MSA events though, I would think FIA has more stringent rules
My experience is with MSA events though, I would think FIA has more stringent rules
fioran0 said:
Thanks for the reply. That's exactly what I was looking for.
While it would obviously be simpler if 100 posts had been made saying "no silver sticker and fine" it was info and experiences I was after even if it wasn't in line with my interpretations of the rules.
Once a trend is established it's often irrelevant what the actual ruling is.
I'll make some calls and see if anyone can fit another pair of posts and certify and if not look for another helmet.
No worries While it would obviously be simpler if 100 posts had been made saying "no silver sticker and fine" it was info and experiences I was after even if it wasn't in line with my interpretations of the rules.
Once a trend is established it's often irrelevant what the actual ruling is.
I'll make some calls and see if anyone can fit another pair of posts and certify and if not look for another helmet.
I got my current helmet (Arai GP5) before posts were standard fitment. The helmet supplier fitted the posts and then sent them off to be checked whereupon the sticker would be fitted, so I would presume you can just send the lid off to the relevant place (presumably either Helmet or HANS manufacturer) and get them to approve and sticker it without messing about with new posts?
spikey,
thanks for that follow up. HANS is mandatory however i wasnt aware that if it wasnt you just couldnt take it and that would be fine. worth remembering thats for sure. have you any info on how MSA passes helmets presented with HANS but showing no silver 8858-2002 sticker?
technical list 29 clearly states "When the mounting of the tether anchorages for the Hans® has been carried out under the supervision of the helmet manufacturer himself, the helmets carry a glossy silver holographic FIA label" it doesnt say anymore on the matter and the HANS tech doc carries the wording that its just strongly recommended.
it also states under the helmet list "Helmets homologated according to the standard FIA 8860-2004 are compatible with the HANS system as a matter of course and are therefore not listed here." which ties in again with the HANS tech doc.
essentially the position is that for HANS you need
1) a helmet approved to 8858-2002
2 a helmet that meets 8860-2004 and has manufacturer embedded posts (not mounted)
3) a helmet that meets 8860-2004 and has 8858-2002 approved posts and mountings fitted in accordance with the position and manner detailed in 8858-2002
items 1 and 2 will need stickers but for item 3 the sticker will only be there if manufacturer mounted and this is not mandatory.
im with you on carrying the regs to point out but my experience is that it usually doesnt go to well and just makes everyone frustrated towards you. theres absolutely times to fight this but other times where its just better to be over prepared. with HANS, if this means getting posts looked at even though it isnt technically required its better to just do it is my view.
having heard a few folks had run foul took me to a reread of the regs incase id missed an update. since that wasnt the case i was just trying to find out if looking for the silver sticker had become the norm even if technically inaccurate. if wookie had someone mention it to him at Spa, a track that wasnt mentioned in the tales id heard then thats probably enough of a warning that i should expect the same.
wookie, thanks again, i was going to drop schroth a line and see if they will secure or approve my posts. i'll also ask stand21 as i know folks have sent stuff in to them before for fitting. what i dont know is if that was only stand21 helmets or any kind.
thanks for that follow up. HANS is mandatory however i wasnt aware that if it wasnt you just couldnt take it and that would be fine. worth remembering thats for sure. have you any info on how MSA passes helmets presented with HANS but showing no silver 8858-2002 sticker?
technical list 29 clearly states "When the mounting of the tether anchorages for the Hans® has been carried out under the supervision of the helmet manufacturer himself, the helmets carry a glossy silver holographic FIA label" it doesnt say anymore on the matter and the HANS tech doc carries the wording that its just strongly recommended.
it also states under the helmet list "Helmets homologated according to the standard FIA 8860-2004 are compatible with the HANS system as a matter of course and are therefore not listed here." which ties in again with the HANS tech doc.
essentially the position is that for HANS you need
1) a helmet approved to 8858-2002
2 a helmet that meets 8860-2004 and has manufacturer embedded posts (not mounted)
3) a helmet that meets 8860-2004 and has 8858-2002 approved posts and mountings fitted in accordance with the position and manner detailed in 8858-2002
items 1 and 2 will need stickers but for item 3 the sticker will only be there if manufacturer mounted and this is not mandatory.
im with you on carrying the regs to point out but my experience is that it usually doesnt go to well and just makes everyone frustrated towards you. theres absolutely times to fight this but other times where its just better to be over prepared. with HANS, if this means getting posts looked at even though it isnt technically required its better to just do it is my view.
having heard a few folks had run foul took me to a reread of the regs incase id missed an update. since that wasnt the case i was just trying to find out if looking for the silver sticker had become the norm even if technically inaccurate. if wookie had someone mention it to him at Spa, a track that wasnt mentioned in the tales id heard then thats probably enough of a warning that i should expect the same.
wookie, thanks again, i was going to drop schroth a line and see if they will secure or approve my posts. i'll also ask stand21 as i know folks have sent stuff in to them before for fitting. what i dont know is if that was only stand21 helmets or any kind.
Hmm, not sure how presenting a helmet and HANS without a sticker would go-some scrutes might make a fuss, some may not but its sometimes hard to get a consistent reaction. I would think it would be ok, but at the end of the day im a competitor not an official so my opinion is far from gospel!
The other option is to ring the MSA and get a definitive answer-they've been pretty helpful on the couple of occasions i've phoned them
The other option is to ring the MSA and get a definitive answer-they've been pretty helpful on the couple of occasions i've phoned them
I've had a glass of wine and I'm afraid I can't decipher the previous posts. I have an arai gp5 with 'after market' HANs' posts. They werent a factory fit at the time. The posts were fitted by an authorised agent and there is a sticker inside the helmet to say it is an authorised fitment. The only time this has been a problem has been at Spa, when the scrutes didn't seem to be aware that there were helmets and posts fitted after manufacture ,and the internal sticker. Even when I pointed out the sticker they were unsure. I talked them round, but I guess it could have gone the other way. Which is daft.....
spikey,
thats the crux right there, the variable response to what shouldnt be. it happens with a bunch of stuff and you spend more time pouring over regs than you do anything else at time. i cant imagine what it must be like for car builders!!
im going to see if i can get manufacturer to inspect and sticker and if not just grab another helmet that i know has the posts fitted at source and thus stickered. its easier than spending any more time on it.
teamHolden, im glad to hear it as it makes no sense sober either
i guess i was hoping that if some regulation person (there must be some regulation lovers right?) was reading they couldnt straighten me on whether i was totally on the wrong end of the parts that relate to FIA HANS approval while also trying to see if refusal was limited to a few tracks or becoming the norm.
i figured a definate answer to either would set me straight on whether i was going to encounter helmet problems or not.
thats the crux right there, the variable response to what shouldnt be. it happens with a bunch of stuff and you spend more time pouring over regs than you do anything else at time. i cant imagine what it must be like for car builders!!
im going to see if i can get manufacturer to inspect and sticker and if not just grab another helmet that i know has the posts fitted at source and thus stickered. its easier than spending any more time on it.
teamHolden, im glad to hear it as it makes no sense sober either
i guess i was hoping that if some regulation person (there must be some regulation lovers right?) was reading they couldnt straighten me on whether i was totally on the wrong end of the parts that relate to FIA HANS approval while also trying to see if refusal was limited to a few tracks or becoming the norm.
i figured a definate answer to either would set me straight on whether i was going to encounter helmet problems or not.
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