The driver makes ALL the difference?
Discussion
So trackdays have a huge mix of driving abilities and a huge mix of cars. I think driving around you can easily tell the good drivers in slow cars, learners in slow cars, good drivers in fast cars, learners in fast cars apart with ease.
So driving round sometimes I'll see a car going really well, I think that's a good driver AND a very quick CAR. Then I may see another car that should on paper be quicker, say also noted as a good chassis but a distinct power / weight advantage. The driver is also driving well but not really much quicker just a little bit quicker on straights but about the same under braking & cornering. Over many different days I tend to build an opinion of those X are really quite fast, those Y not so good.
What are the frequent track day drivers opinion, can you form an opinion on cars abilities from what you see on your regular track outings or not, its purely driver ability is what makes a car fast so cannot compare?
So driving round sometimes I'll see a car going really well, I think that's a good driver AND a very quick CAR. Then I may see another car that should on paper be quicker, say also noted as a good chassis but a distinct power / weight advantage. The driver is also driving well but not really much quicker just a little bit quicker on straights but about the same under braking & cornering. Over many different days I tend to build an opinion of those X are really quite fast, those Y not so good.
What are the frequent track day drivers opinion, can you form an opinion on cars abilities from what you see on your regular track outings or not, its purely driver ability is what makes a car fast so cannot compare?
Easy (sweeping generalisation time):
Ferrari = will either potter or drive like a c0ck and overtake everywhere, against all rules. Most likely to cause a crash.
GTR: Will be very quick for a few laps and then disappear for some reason. Either to go and see how cool they looked in photos or because it has broken down (max-powered).
Porker: Will merge into the background. Not slow or quick just there. Unless real GT3 with a jockey sized bloke in expensive overalls and helmet when will be very smooth and very quick.
Any car on slicks: Driver will be an ar8e. Hang back at each session start just so they can show how amazing they are by cutting everyone up. Mistakes uber-grip levels for being a driving god.
Hot hatch things: Will be quick. Often beyond drivers talent. Especially under braking.
Caterfields: Either very quick or very slow depending on if the owner or a mate/spouse is driving.
Atoms/Westie XR2/Radicals: Always surprisingly slow. Always. (Can't figure this one out).
Ferrari = will either potter or drive like a c0ck and overtake everywhere, against all rules. Most likely to cause a crash.
GTR: Will be very quick for a few laps and then disappear for some reason. Either to go and see how cool they looked in photos or because it has broken down (max-powered).
Porker: Will merge into the background. Not slow or quick just there. Unless real GT3 with a jockey sized bloke in expensive overalls and helmet when will be very smooth and very quick.
Any car on slicks: Driver will be an ar8e. Hang back at each session start just so they can show how amazing they are by cutting everyone up. Mistakes uber-grip levels for being a driving god.
Hot hatch things: Will be quick. Often beyond drivers talent. Especially under braking.
Caterfields: Either very quick or very slow depending on if the owner or a mate/spouse is driving.
Atoms/Westie XR2/Radicals: Always surprisingly slow. Always. (Can't figure this one out).
Edited by c7xlg on Friday 22 July 08:54
Our top instructor is usually at least 4 seconds per lap quicker than the owner/driver of any vehicle.
Including those that think they're handy, which is most of them.
We have attendees who've spent 10k+ in track mods on their vehicles and they're still 4 secs per lap slower than he is but they won't spend 100 quid on private lessons.
Including those that think they're handy, which is most of them.
We have attendees who've spent 10k+ in track mods on their vehicles and they're still 4 secs per lap slower than he is but they won't spend 100 quid on private lessons.
turbo harry... neither have I!! Unless they are doing it by cutting the corner/under braking/on cool down lap, all without being signaled ok to pass by the car in front.
Only time I got tuition on a track day, after 2 laps he said to drop him off as there was nothing he could tell me! I think he acutally wanted a cup of tea/early lunch rather than me being a driving god!
Only time I got tuition on a track day, after 2 laps he said to drop him off as there was nothing he could tell me! I think he acutally wanted a cup of tea/early lunch rather than me being a driving god!
Hum, it is a debatable one hence why I asked, but I don't think the driver can make up the difference between say "average experienced trackday attendee in a GT3 Porsche" and the instructor in a 328i BMW for example. The performance gulf between the two cars is just too great to make up unless the GT3 driver is really hopeless.
I'm nothing more than an average driver but if say I was in my old VX220 I'd be confident I'd be faster than an instructor driving say a 1.6 MX5.
Taking the concept to the extreme, F1 these days they basically say the car wins not the driver.
I'm nothing more than an average driver but if say I was in my old VX220 I'd be confident I'd be faster than an instructor driving say a 1.6 MX5.
Taking the concept to the extreme, F1 these days they basically say the car wins not the driver.
chris7676 said:
It's mostly the driver.
I don't think there is a need to assess other car' abilities, as with experience and various racing-driver-tested lap times you can get a good idea how fast certain cars are.
True of course, but I always find myself thinking "thats going well" or "one of those, what crap why bother".I don't think there is a need to assess other car' abilities, as with experience and various racing-driver-tested lap times you can get a good idea how fast certain cars are.
Cheddar mentioned the instructor going 4 sec a lap faster in any one persons car than the owner can typically manage. So really anyone who has a car that given to an instructor could go more than 4 sec a lap faster than another car also driven by the instructor would be faster round the track than the instructor if driven by its owner?
Herman Toothrot said:
F1 these days they basically say the car wins not the driver.
Nonsense. Just look at the team mates where one is almost always quicker than the other, despite having the same car.Talking about trackdays, one thing to bear in mind is that people do change over the course of a day. If they are new to a circuit they will build their confidence/technique. If they are with an instructor they will probably go faster than without. If they've noticed their brakes going off they might take it easier later on. Even in a session they will be 'on it' and then maybe cooling down for a lap or two, then back on it again. Inexperienced drivers might also have an inconsistent technique where they nail some corners, but pussyfoot roud others. You might also find a car which is being shared by two drivers, each with different styles, so varience between sessions.
For these reasons I try not to form a 'preconception' about what they will be like on track. Certainly some observation helps, but just because someone was faster/slower than you in the last session doesn't mean the same will be true in this session - so if you overtook them last time, but now they are behind you: don't just block them! Let them through and if they don't pull away or get in your way then maybe they will let you back through. It's not a race so just find your own space, and try not to pre-judge anyone!
I think you can draw certain conclusions but you have to look at the big picture. The guy going slowly in his GT3, is it his/her first trackday? Does the BMW have coilovers and slicks with an instructor behind the wheel? I do think knowing a track and haveing the ability makes all the difference and can bridge the performance gap between perceived lesser cars. I did a course with CATD and was really impressed with what they did with a standard focus!
Do people focus on certain cars and expect too much when they see them on track?
Do people focus on certain cars and expect too much when they see them on track?
mrmr96 said:
Nonsense. Just look at the team mates where one is almost always quicker than the other, despite having the same car.
So there is never a pattern where say the Red Bull cars are almost always at the front, or a pair of McLarens or say a pair of Ferrari's,... isn't that the picture of the last few years of F1?Williams back in the '90s always at the front, these days no-where.
Does it not also explain how one season a drivers a World cham the next not a contender?
Herman Toothrot said:
Hum, it is a debatable one hence why I asked, but I don't think the driver can make up the difference between say "average experienced trackday attendee in a GT3 Porsche" and the instructor in a 328i BMW for example. The performance gulf between the two cars is just too great to make up unless the GT3 driver is really hopeless.
I'm nothing more than an average driver but if say I was in my old VX220 I'd be confident I'd be faster than an instructor driving say a 1.6 MX5.
I think this would depend on the cars in question.I'm nothing more than an average driver but if say I was in my old VX220 I'd be confident I'd be faster than an instructor driving say a 1.6 MX5.
e.g. All of the F1 drivers on TG driving the old Suzuki are faster than 'most' of the celebs driving the quicker Kia. And this is at a low performance level. The higher up the performance ladder you go, the higher the skill is required. So the gaps would be bigger.
Herman Toothrot said:
Taking the concept to the extreme, F1 these days they basically say the car wins not the driver.
But that's a flawed concept as all F1 drivers, pretty much without exception are all highly capable racers. Yes some are better, but all are bloody good.Edited by 300bhp/ton on Friday 22 July 11:12
In terms of who gets around quickest on a trackday, I'd say it's 70% car and 30% driver.
A Trabant with the best driver in the world is never going to be faster than someone who's crap but got a 600 BHP Skyline.
Because the performance gap between cars on trackdays is so vast (not a bad thing), the cars at each end of the gap are making more of difference to lap times than the driver. (Most plonkers can point and squirt in a straight line).
Not about lap time though is it. It's fairly easy to see which cars are driven by plonkers. Harder for an occasional attendee like myself to tell between an average/good driver and a great driver though.
A Trabant with the best driver in the world is never going to be faster than someone who's crap but got a 600 BHP Skyline.
Because the performance gap between cars on trackdays is so vast (not a bad thing), the cars at each end of the gap are making more of difference to lap times than the driver. (Most plonkers can point and squirt in a straight line).
Not about lap time though is it. It's fairly easy to see which cars are driven by plonkers. Harder for an occasional attendee like myself to tell between an average/good driver and a great driver though.
cheddar said:
We have attendees who've spent 10k+ in track mods on their vehicles and they're still 4 secs per lap slower than he is but they won't spend 100 quid on private lessons.
I can't speak for Track Days, but this is exactly what happens in road driving too. If you actually want to go quick, training is the first place to spend money.I think it's fair to assume that most people actually care more about other people thinking they're quick, based purely on the car they're driving.
Most recent case if me thinking 'wow, that's a really well modified / sorted car and well driven' was a mk1 golf gti at an MSE day, usually the little old hatches I see understeering round corners on 3 wheels. This little Golf was absolutely planted and very smooth. Turned out the owner had found himself a 'sale of the century' - bought the car for something like £3.5k bit going through receipts the previous owner had sunk over £10k into it.. It showed, never seen a similar car go as fast.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
I can't speak for Track Days, but this is exactly what happens in road driving too. If you actually want to go quick, training is the first place to spend money.
Although what I find amazing is a shear number of numpties that can't/won't accept a slower car can be driven faster/better than a quick one.It doesn't mean the slower car is really fast, just under those conditions, with those drivers it was.
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