Things car designers should start by getting right

[Johnnytheboy]

I've had this running debate with my old man, who unfortunately having done such things as help design the E-Type and write lots of books on cars, has the edge on me in technical knowledge.

My argument is that there are certain inexpensive, not-particularly-subjective things that so utterly colour one's opinion of a car that they should be 'got right' before any other element of the car's design is fixed.

The features that typify this for me are brake pedal feel and the gearchange.

I've driven otherwise good cars with poor brake pedal feel or a sloppy gearchange that I therefore haven't liked (a Rover 25-based MG with an awful gearchange springs to mind). Equally I've driven fairly humdrum cars that have made a positive impression on me because they've had a lovely precise gearchange or nicely-weighted brake pedal.

The two cars with the nicest gearchange I can recall were a Puma and a mk1 MX5. So it doesn't have to be a premium car. Equally, unlike looks or firmness of suspension, I'd say that these were aspects of a car's character that were likely to be fairly un-subjective.

Father's counter argument is something like "it's complicated". At which point I remind him how shocking the brakes were - by all accounts - on the E-Type and he writes me out of his will.

So why do cars come to market with bad brake feel/gearchange, when the technology to make them good has been round for so long?

[Xtriple129]

Quite agree wth you. The feel/weight of the accelerator on my Merc completely ruins the car for me. I find I drive with my foot clenched! This a fundemental aspect of the car that should be sorted at the design/development stage. If nothing else, it makes the whole car feel sluggish - which with a stonking great V8 up front it certainly isn't.

[otolith]

You have to keep in mind that not all cars have the same requirements because they cater for different markets. For instance, if you give a car with a firm, progressive brake pedal with lots of feel to many drivers, they will tell you that the brakes are crap because they don't stand the car on its nose at the slightest brush. Particularly people accustomed to VAG products. Likewise, a gearchange that feels as if the stick is attached to something is a bit too real for some people. Communicative steering is just NVH to some people, and a car that reacts nicely to throttle inputs in corners is "twitchy" to some. What I'd call "stodgy", someone else will call "planted".

[AAGR]

Still happens of course, usually because the Product Planning department is having a strop about costs, or market trends.
Raising the prices by underhand methods is often a factor too. In recent years, I can't recall the number of times I have sworn at the companies which sell you a car then charge obscene amounts of money for ordinary extras. Wasn't it BMW who once charged more for brown-tint instead of grey-tint windows, and wouldn't allow one to order air conditioning at the same time as a sun roof ?

[kambites]

The big one for me is the driving position - no-one seems to make cars I can get comfortable in anymore.

[Johnnytheboy]

AAGR said:

Still happens of course, usually because the Product Planning department is having a strop about costs, or market trends.

My point really is whether (for example) a gearbox that has a nice precise action costs more than one that feels like stirring paint, or is simply better designed.

Someone above said that what I consider non-subjective may not be so; I'd always assumed that everyone liked a firm brake pedal and a precise manual gearbox. Guess I was just brought up round the right cars.

[Caulkhead]

The driving position. Fundamentally flawed in so many cars and often combined with badly-weighted pedals and no decent clutch footrest.

[kambites]

There is definitely an element of personal preference in the gear shift action. I like mechanical feeling boxes, where you can actually feel the what's happening in the box through the lever, but other people complain that such boxes are notchy because they resist when you try to just jam them into gear.

I think the brake pedal is personal taste too. I've never found a car with servo assisted brakes that I like, but plenty of people hate the brakes in my car because you have to use quite serious force to get the car to stop.

[Agoogy]

Visibility and finding a pure engineering solution to enabling narrow pillars.
I think I'm right in saying the no.1 aspect of driving a car safely is being able to see out of it, so the better or more visibility you have the safer you will be...

As much as I love the rising waistline, pillar box DLO's of modern cars (Fiesta, Aston etc), beeping sensors and cameras are no substitute for your eyes...

It is possible as Citroen and Volvo(concept) have shown

[kambites]

Agoogy said:

Visibility and finding a pure engineering solution to enabling narrow pillars.

That's another good one. One of my pet hates about modern cars.

[LongLiveTazio]

Heating/ventilation systems not being up to scratch. Remember how everyone suddenly raved about how a Hilux was unbreakable after Clarkson did the TG piece? Well, try one on a cold morning and see how quickly it'll clear the windscreen. Appalling. Fine in Africa, rubbish in Aberdeen.

Similar to the above, visibility and keeping the windshield clean. I have no problems with MINI wanting lots of money for a 'Goodwood' car that's trimmed by Rolls-Royce, I'm sure it'll be amazing quality. However, it will still have the terrible, pathetic washer jets and terrible wipers that mean it's not particularly nice in inclement weather. Most 'budget' cars unfortunately seem to be the same, I guess HVAC and 'the little things' are actually pretty expensive to do.

And, finally, run-flat tyres. Just no.

[Pints]

I completely agree with Otolith, and even the driving position is probably debatable (height, distance from steering wheel, etc.)

But the one thing (driving position related) which surely cannot be disputed is the placement of the driver being directly in front of the steering wheel.

Why does it seem that so very few manufacturers are able to get this right?!

[RosscoPCole]

Something that annoys me is when I have the sat-nav plugged in there is a wire trailing all over the car.
Why can't there be a power socket on the top of the dash near where you put the sat-nav.
Makes sense to me.

[Johnnytheboy]

RosscoPCole said:

Something that annoys me is when I have the sat-nav plugged in there is a wire trailing all over the car.
Why can't there be a power socket on the top of the dash near where you put the sat-nav.
Makes sense to me.

Of all things, the current Ford Transit has a 12V socket tucked away under a flap in front of the driver.

[thinfourth2]

Take 100 folk off the street

Put them in a Ford Focus (one at a time) with its soft mushy over served pedal and tell them to try the brakes

99 of them will tell you they are great as the car stops quickly with zero effort

1 will complan about it being soft and mushy

Take the same 100 folk and give them a caterham to try the brakes in

99 will say the brakes are terrible as you have to push like fook to get it to stop

1 will say the brakes are great



Can you see why modern cars have soft mushy brake pedals

[budgie smuggler]

thinfourth2 said:

Take 100 folk off the street

Put them in a Ford Focus (one at a time) with its soft mushy over served pedal and tell them to try the brakes

99 of them will tell you they are great as the car stops quickly with zero effort

1 will complan about it being soft and mushy

Take the same 100 folk and give them a caterham to try the brakes in

99 will say the brakes are terrible as you have to push like fook to get it to stop

1 will say the brakes are great



Can you see why modern cars have soft mushy brake pedals

Compared to other cars of the ilk, the Focus actually has decent pedal feel IMHO. I've had the pleasure of driving new (less than 3000 mile old) Astras, Zafiras and Corsas the last few weeks, and they're all massively more sensitive than a focus of the same age. You barely touch the pedal to get hard braking force.
The controls of modern Citroen (e.g C2) are the worst I've felt so far. The steering is ridiculously light too.


ETA: I take your point though

Edited by budgie smuggler on Monday 25th July 16:18

[Johnnytheboy]

Not necessarily. More of the general public will think that a soft brake pedal equates to poor brakes. If I'm honest I'm one of them.

My last delivery van but one (VW LT) had a brake pedal so soft it felt like a clutch/accelerator. The brakes were fine, but most people came away from driving it thinking they weren't powerful enough, because the pedal was squishy.

[Pistachio]

Pints said:

I completely agree with Otolith, and even the driving position is probably debatable (height, distance from steering wheel, etc.)

But the one thing (driving position related) which surely cannot be disputed is the placement of the driver being directly in front of the steering wheel.

Why does it seem that so very few manufacturers are able to get this right?!

It is usually the Design Engineers who set these things up and often as not it is carry over parts from the last model so it is already compromised from the start.
It is very rare these days to have a car designed completely new from the ground up.
Designers (with the digital felt tips) are always screaming about the offset steering but it just falls on deaf ears usually as Engineering is usually bigger and has the last say. Smaller companies it is easier to fix these things as it is a smaller tree of folk working on the project. In large companies the meetings go and on and some are intent on making empires rather than design cars for humans to drive..and some are in companies that dont really care as they treat cars like shirts in a supermarket ..stack em high sell em cheap…

[LongLiveTazio]

Johnnytheboy said:

Of all things, the current Ford Transit has a 12V socket tucked away under a flap in front of the driver.

I think the general design of a new Transit is top drawer, actually. Loads of useful cubby holes, excellent seating position, massive fun to drive.

[rhinochopig]

Driver ergonomics. So many companies get this so wrong it's untrue, and there is absolutely no need to given modern cad packages. I'm looking at YOU Lotus!

A great example of this is the Nissan X-Trail vs the Ford Ka. I have about 4-5 inches of headroom in a the tiny little Ka. Yet in a bloody huge X-Trail I have to drive with the sun shade open or my head hits it