Discussion
There have been quite a few interesting discussions regarding replicas, recreations, copies or whatever you want to call them.
It's quite an emotive subject throwing up some strong views.
My personal opinion - well-made copies have their place and can be the next best thing to the real deal. Particulary when the real thing is rare (or non-existent)
On the other hand, D-types with cortina engines or Ferrari Daytonas based on a Datsun .....I can't see the point.
Most replicas are of historic vehicles, no longer in production, but one car has always baffled me. The A.C. Cobra.
How is it that A.C. Cars, or whatever they were called a few years ago, allowed copies to be made when they were still producing the original ?
Caterham succesfully stopped Westfield, why not A.C. ?
It's quite an emotive subject throwing up some strong views.
My personal opinion - well-made copies have their place and can be the next best thing to the real deal. Particulary when the real thing is rare (or non-existent)
On the other hand, D-types with cortina engines or Ferrari Daytonas based on a Datsun .....I can't see the point.
Most replicas are of historic vehicles, no longer in production, but one car has always baffled me. The A.C. Cobra.
How is it that A.C. Cars, or whatever they were called a few years ago, allowed copies to be made when they were still producing the original ?
Caterham succesfully stopped Westfield, why not A.C. ?
Put this on a thread in General, this would be the only 'replica' I'd really like:
http://www.suffolkjaguar.com/jaguar-gallery/
A Suffolk SS100.
Although I could live with one of their C-Types
http://www.suffolkjaguar.com/jaguar-gallery/
A Suffolk SS100.
Although I could live with one of their C-Types
mph said:
There have been quite a few interesting discussions regarding replicas, recreations, copies or whatever you want to call them.
It's quite an emotive subject throwing up some strong views.
My personal opinion - well-made copies have their place and can be the next best thing to the real deal. Particulary when the real thing is rare (or non-existent)
On the other hand, D-types with cortina engines or Ferrari Daytonas based on a Datsun .....I can't see the point.
Most replicas are of historic vehicles, no longer in production, but one car has always baffled me. The A.C. Cobra.
How is it that A.C. Cars, or whatever they were called a few years ago, allowed copies to be made when they were still producing the original ?
Caterham succesfully stopped Westfield, why not A.C. ?
As far as I am aware AC Cars does not / did not own the Cobra name, that was Mr Shelby himself, and believe me he has tried to get his 'cut' from all the replicas out there but failed, and none of the replica Cobras in the Uk anyway are called cobras by the people producing them, its the builders / buyers that put the badges on, which is why in part Shelby failed.It's quite an emotive subject throwing up some strong views.
My personal opinion - well-made copies have their place and can be the next best thing to the real deal. Particulary when the real thing is rare (or non-existent)
On the other hand, D-types with cortina engines or Ferrari Daytonas based on a Datsun .....I can't see the point.
Most replicas are of historic vehicles, no longer in production, but one car has always baffled me. The A.C. Cobra.
How is it that A.C. Cars, or whatever they were called a few years ago, allowed copies to be made when they were still producing the original ?
Caterham succesfully stopped Westfield, why not A.C. ?
The above is not meant to be definitive in any way shape or form so dont shoot me, but I think its pretty close, and besides there will be someone along soon with a definitive answer I'm sure.
Cobra Andy said:
As far as I am aware AC Cars does not / did not own the Cobra name ... which is why in part Shelby failed.
The above is not meant to be definitive in any way shape or form so dont shoot me, but I think its pretty close, and besides there will be someone along soon with a definitive answer I'm sure.
Caterham purchased the 7 name, designs, and production rights directly from Lotus and Colin Chapman who were eager to put that old design behind them. Then Westfield comes along and starts to produce copies for free based on some knackered Lotus they dragged home one night... Yes, I am oversymplifying things here that happened 40+ years ago.The above is not meant to be definitive in any way shape or form so dont shoot me, but I think its pretty close, and besides there will be someone along soon with a definitive answer I'm sure.
Shelby purchased unfinished Aces, as product not design, and fitted the now famous big iron. Can't say what all AC might have changed for those cars. Advantage... AC who likely would have ceased to exist without those sales.
The idea to claim ownership of an iconic shape as part of Intellectual Property is one that has come into existence in more recent decades. So even there, the shape was designed by AC and produced as the Ace for years before Ol Shel even came along. Shelby lost (sold, really) ownership of the Cobra name, to Ford, not too long after the original ceased production. The 427 shape that everyone apes now IS by Shelby & Co., but really is not much more than bulgy fenders, sorry 'wings', bolted in place of standard. Hardly an original concept even in 1964...
/S/ Duck N. Cover, IMHO.
Edited by ItsaTVR on Wednesday 27th July 02:36
vixen1700 said:
Put this on a thread in General, this would be the only 'replica' I'd really like:
http://www.suffolkjaguar.com/jaguar-gallery/
A Suffolk SS100.
Although I could live with one of their C-Types
Would you believe that this was once advertised as an SS100 relica on eBay:http://www.suffolkjaguar.com/jaguar-gallery/
A Suffolk SS100.
Although I could live with one of their C-Types
As a kid, I had one of these on my window ledge:
But I now have this (to replace my TVR):
Around 300 originals were produced and they go for silly money. There are now around 200 Suffolk replicas. I suppose a replica should be an homage to the original, but I'm quite happy with my "fake".
To answer the OP's question, about why AC haven’t taken action against replica makers, the simple answer is that the AC Cobra came from the ACE, which in turn was designed by John Tojeiro, who acknowledged that his design was heavily influenced by the Barchetta bodywork designed / produced by Touring for some of the Ferrari 166MM chassis . . . . . given the litigation that’s happened over the years concerning the Cobra name, I don’t think the rights owners would have that big an appetite for trying to sue people over a design they themselves “borrowed”
esv683 said:
How does the car drive and is it well screwed together...
Pretty good considering the narrow tyres. It does have the XJ6 engine, suspension & brakes. Unlike the original, it has a very strong box section chassis. The design was developed over many years, so everything was very well thought out. The driving position and general feel is vintage though (it was not particularly modern in the 30's) so it may not be to everyone's taste. Not a motorway cruiser!esv683 said:
...and the big question, how much would you have to pay to get one.
IIRC the self-build costs something like £35k for the parts + a donor XJ6 and possibly engine, gearbox and diff rebuilds. A decent second hand one could be anything from £45k upwards. If you want a bespoke works built one, you'll have to ask Roger.The term "toolroom copy" is relatively new and is widely bandied-about.
Any knowledge/thoughts on how the term is (or should be) defined? Google doesn't seem to be my friend in this case.
My aim is to produce a "toolroom copy" of a particular car (that is no longer in existence in its original form) and I am going to the extremes of purchasing original-spec aluminium, recreating each minor/major buck/former used in its original construction (even to the extent of duplicating metal inserts placed along buck edges), original-spec rivets and method of application, involving those who originally participated in its construction etc etc etc .... (taking a damn long time as a result!)
Reminds me of the phrase, "Better is not just the enemy of the good today, it's kicking its butt, stealing its lunch money and hitting on its mom."
But where do you draw the line? Just what is a "toolroom copy"?
Any knowledge/thoughts on how the term is (or should be) defined? Google doesn't seem to be my friend in this case.
My aim is to produce a "toolroom copy" of a particular car (that is no longer in existence in its original form) and I am going to the extremes of purchasing original-spec aluminium, recreating each minor/major buck/former used in its original construction (even to the extent of duplicating metal inserts placed along buck edges), original-spec rivets and method of application, involving those who originally participated in its construction etc etc etc .... (taking a damn long time as a result!)
Reminds me of the phrase, "Better is not just the enemy of the good today, it's kicking its butt, stealing its lunch money and hitting on its mom."
But where do you draw the line? Just what is a "toolroom copy"?
Edited by XJ13 on Thursday 28th July 07:42
Bozwell said:
toolroom copy means exactly the same as the original.
Doesn't that depend on the quality of the original? A very accurate copy may involve replicating the mistakes in the design and construction of the original. I think it all depends on how far you are willing to go to scratch your personal itch. Whatever others may think of a project, you are your biggest critic and it's yourself you have to satisfy.Also racing cars have always been developed and "messed about with", in period and beyond.
XJ13 said:
But where do you draw the line? Just what is a "toolroom copy"?
It infers a high level of accuracy, but IMHO it really is a meaningless term.vixen1700 said:
Lovely.
Saw an old boy driving what I assumed was a Suffolk recently where I live, it was just jaw-dropping in gunmetal.
Maybe one day...
Very nice. I have a rabid, irrational, consuming hatred of replicas. But I like the Suffolk SS100 a lot because it is made with integrity to high standards. And it is based on a very rare car. Same goes for decent C types and D types, maybe even a well done Cobra ( I like the Hawk 289 kits, very nice).Saw an old boy driving what I assumed was a Suffolk recently where I live, it was just jaw-dropping in gunmetal.
Maybe one day...
It all goes wrong when the replica industry starts creating weird, obscene caricatures of the original. Cobra kits are often guilty of this - too many of them look rubbish.
Roy C said:
Bozwell said:
toolroom copy means exactly the same as the original.
Doesn't that depend on the quality of the original? A very accurate copy may involve replicating the mistakes in the design and construction of the original. I think it all depends on how far you are willing to go to scratch your personal itch. Whatever others may think of a project, you are your biggest critic and it's yourself you have to satisfy.Also racing cars have always been developed and "messed about with", in period and beyond.
XJ13 said:
But where do you draw the line? Just what is a "toolroom copy"?
It infers a high level of accuracy, but IMHO it really is a meaningless term.Making a copy of another car is OK IMHO, it only becomes an issue when somebody tries to pass off the replica as an original for profit. Kit cars have been around for years some of the Cobra / D & C type replicas are lovely, but when somebody takes a chassis plate off a wrecked race car and builds a replica with the aim of selling it on as the long-lost original.... that become fraud.
Paul
Paul
a8hex said:
Probably not
Won't if have a totally different braking system? Normally steam engines running on the main line need to.
IIRC it's own brakes are of a similar design to the original type although it has a compressor to supply braking air to the train rather than vacuum ... Won't if have a totally different braking system? Normally steam engines running on the main line need to.
there's also differences in boiler construction IIRC, but you could argue that it;s no different to building a copy of an old car and it having to have modern lighting components and having plastic insulated wiring and stainless steel rather than copper brake lines and stainless rather than chormed fittings and bolts ...
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_results....
This looks an interesting and well put together car!
More info here www.ozisell.com/jag
This looks an interesting and well put together car!
More info here www.ozisell.com/jag
mph1977 said:
a8hex said:
Probably not
Won't if have a totally different braking system? Normally steam engines running on the main line need to.
IIRC it's own brakes are of a similar design to the original type although it has a compressor to supply braking air to the train rather than vacuum ... Won't if have a totally different braking system? Normally steam engines running on the main line need to.
there's also differences in boiler construction IIRC, but you could argue that it;s no different to building a copy of an old car and it having to have modern lighting components and having plastic insulated wiring and stainless steel rather than copper brake lines and stainless rather than chormed fittings and bolts ...
My point was that if a tool room copy is to be indistinguishable from an original then it should be exactly right, as in how the originals left the factory, rather than a copy of a sympathetically updated genuine car.
Where do you draw the line?
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