New house - old boiler
Discussion
Well, not a new house exactly.
We currently stay in a new build (8 years old) but in a months time will be moving into our new home, a 150 year old sandstone villa.
My missus likes the house warm/roasting but in our current gaff the bills are bearable due to the modern boiler, new double glazing and good insulation. The new place is going to prove much more of a challenge. It has decent windows, not much in the way of insulation (will remedy that before the winter) but the biggest concern is the central heating is ancient. Old school type radiators, exposed pipework (massive bore) and a boiler that has it's own bunker out in the back garden. The current residents have lived there for ten years and date the system as original and the boiler as circa 40 years old but very reliable.
I've kept a bit of cash spare to replace the boiler but my years of living in a fancy shoe box have left me out of touch with this type of thing.
Can anyone recommend firstly the best type of boiler for my needs, secondly the best make or model and thirdly the most efficient and cost effective over the long term. I'd rather keep the old radiators as they look right for the style of property so changing only the boiler if possible.
Oh, current resident says their average heating bill is "around £350 - £400" a month if that helps put it into context.
Edited for typo
We currently stay in a new build (8 years old) but in a months time will be moving into our new home, a 150 year old sandstone villa.
My missus likes the house warm/roasting but in our current gaff the bills are bearable due to the modern boiler, new double glazing and good insulation. The new place is going to prove much more of a challenge. It has decent windows, not much in the way of insulation (will remedy that before the winter) but the biggest concern is the central heating is ancient. Old school type radiators, exposed pipework (massive bore) and a boiler that has it's own bunker out in the back garden. The current residents have lived there for ten years and date the system as original and the boiler as circa 40 years old but very reliable.
I've kept a bit of cash spare to replace the boiler but my years of living in a fancy shoe box have left me out of touch with this type of thing.
Can anyone recommend firstly the best type of boiler for my needs, secondly the best make or model and thirdly the most efficient and cost effective over the long term. I'd rather keep the old radiators as they look right for the style of property so changing only the boiler if possible.
Oh, current resident says their average heating bill is "around £350 - £400" a month if that helps put it into context.
Edited for typo
Edited by Playsatan on Wednesday 27th July 08:13
I doubt that a new boiler will save much money.
Say for example the present set up is 75% efficient, ie 75% of whatever you burn ends up as heat in the house - and a new boiler was 100% efficient. You would save about 100 pounds a month compared with the present occupants.
In reality a new boiler may be more like 85% efficient.
Much better to spend money on insulation etc.
The only device over 100% efficient is a heat pump - it could be cheaper to run - but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
Playsatan said:
Oh, current resident says their average heating bill is "around £350 - £400" a month if that helps put it into context.
To put that into context - I was renting an 18th centuary wattle and daub thing where you could sit on the throne and look out into the garden through the gaps between the walls and the beams. Our cats would bring mice in which would then escape by running through the gap underneath the outside door. One very cold Christmas my mother came to stay and as she was getting on a bit we needed to keep the temp up. As we were in the sticks, gas was from a propane tank. Over two weeks we used £200 of propane. So your figures do seem very high if it's a stone building and mains gas.ETA: To be a bit more helpful - the current concensus of opinion seems to be that Worcester-Bosch are the best price/performance option. Also bigger isn't always best - if you oversize then you end up losing efficiency due to excessive cycling.
Edited by CunningPlan on Wednesday 27th July 08:47
Live in a 19th Century stone cottage.
We changed our approximately 20 year old boiler for a new one last year, insulated the loft (was slate laid directly onto laths, nothing else between the house and the sky, with lots of holes) and our bill dropped from £220 per month to £160, so I'd suggest its worth doing everything you can
We changed our approximately 20 year old boiler for a new one last year, insulated the loft (was slate laid directly onto laths, nothing else between the house and the sky, with lots of holes) and our bill dropped from £220 per month to £160, so I'd suggest its worth doing everything you can
caziques said:
I doubt that a new boiler will save much money.
Say for example the present set up is 75% efficient, ie 75% of whatever you burn ends up as heat in the house - and a new boiler was 100% efficient. You would save about 100 pounds a month compared with the present occupants.
In reality a new boiler may be more like 85% efficient.
Much better to spend money on insulation etc.
The only device over 100% efficient is a heat pump - it could be cheaper to run - but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
I still have an old (1971) floor standing Potterton. According to the rating plate (input vs output) it's c.75% efficient but most of the inefficiency is heat lost through the casing into the 'boiler room'. The boiler room in my case happens to be a utility room which, without that heat, would need a radiator of its own. The 'real' losses are, surely, up the flue - not that bad. Mine is TOTALLY reliable and has needed only a gasket for a feed pipe and a couple of thermocouples for the pilot in more than thirty years. I will not live long enough to get a payback from a new 'efficient' boiler, and I'm not planning to snuff it for a while yet!Say for example the present set up is 75% efficient, ie 75% of whatever you burn ends up as heat in the house - and a new boiler was 100% efficient. You would save about 100 pounds a month compared with the present occupants.
In reality a new boiler may be more like 85% efficient.
Much better to spend money on insulation etc.
The only device over 100% efficient is a heat pump - it could be cheaper to run - but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
Vipers said:
Playsatan] said:
Oh, current resident says their average heating bill is "around £350 - £400" a month if that helps put it into context.
That bill is outrageous.OP - what fuel is that cost based on? If its LPG, beware, it it's gas, check supplier deals, if it's oil, prepare for it to continue to skyrocket - heating oil has doubled in cost in the space of 2 years.
GSHP/ASHP may help, but you'd have to factor in the increased electricity bills and the cost of requisite renovations (underfloor heating, LFT radiators etc).
As has been said, insulate, and when you have insulated everything, insulate some more. As for the boiler being in its own shed, not in the slightest bit uncommon, and assuming the pipes to the house are sufficiently well insulated, no cause for alarm whatsoever - there are even boilers designed to be outdoors with NO shelter.
RedLeicester said:
The OP makes no comment as to the size of the building.
The home report estimates 2700 square feet. The rooms are a good size (lounge is 22 feet X 18 feet) but not many of them so not ideal from a heating point of view. The house stands alone so no help from neighbours I'm afraid.RedLeicester said:
OP - what fuel is that cost based on?
Mains gas - supplier unknownRedLeicester said:
GSHP/ASHP may help, but you'd have to factor in the increased electricity bills and the cost of requisite renovations (underfloor heating, LFT radiators etc).
Now this is something I'd considered. Initial findings suggest it's better than oil but not worth the investment if you have access to mains gas. I like the ideal of always being on but I'm not sure I'd ever recover the installation costs. I know there are grants available but qualifying seems complicated and getting indepenent advise is very difficult.I take it combi's are not recommended for this scale?
Playsatan said:
RedLeicester said:
GSHP/ASHP may help, but you'd have to factor in the increased electricity bills and the cost of requisite renovations (underfloor heating, LFT radiators etc).
Now this is something I'd considered. Initial findings suggest it's better than oil but not worth the investment if you have access to mains gas. I like the ideal of always being on but I'm not sure I'd ever recover the installation costs. I know there are grants available but qualifying seems complicated and getting indepenent advise is very difficult.Certainly 90% of the business case for us was the removal of oil, up against mains gas it's a MUCH tricker calculation as gas is (within reason) a far more stable price, not to mention cheaper to begin with. For us, even if the grants fail to run for the proposed 20 year period, we'd still pay off our system very quickly simply from the "saving" of not paying out for oil every 30 seconds.
House is of fairly average size, likewise the rooms, so I'd look to insulating anything that stands still long enough, and then work from there.
So how does the grant scheme work? Payment to cover some of the installation costs or as your post suggests an ongoing rebate? Most of the companies I checked out were heavy on the sale pitch but light on detail. None would commit to how much a system would cost (even ballpark) or how much of a grant would be likely. I sensed a home visit would be akin to a kirby vacuum sales pitch.
The garden is large enough to lay the pipework and I like the idea of reducing what goes to the utility companies were possible but if it was only by a narrow margin I'd probably feel safer going with the more proven and predictable method.
The garden is large enough to lay the pipework and I like the idea of reducing what goes to the utility companies were possible but if it was only by a narrow margin I'd probably feel safer going with the more proven and predictable method.
SOunds like you've been talking to the wrong companies.... or at least the wrong salesmen! All of them are dodging the ball a bit on the RHI, as it hasn't "started" (as I said, begins next autumn), though installs done now will be covered by it. Thus they're hedging their bets as the ultimate figures have yet to be finalised, so no one wants to get caught short and have customers shouting at them.
Here's the Govt spiel on it - http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_ener... - yes it's annual payments for 20 or so years, rather like the Feed in Tariffs for Solar, as opposed grants to help install the thing in the first place, that cost still has to be borne by the householder.
We got the straightest answers from this lot - www.kensaengineering.com - and if you have an afternoon free, there are hundreds of documents in their library which you can download, print and digest!
Here's the Govt spiel on it - http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_ener... - yes it's annual payments for 20 or so years, rather like the Feed in Tariffs for Solar, as opposed grants to help install the thing in the first place, that cost still has to be borne by the householder.
We got the straightest answers from this lot - www.kensaengineering.com - and if you have an afternoon free, there are hundreds of documents in their library which you can download, print and digest!
If you're on mains gas, GSHP/ASHP won't save you a penny and will cost a fortune to install.
You've not said where this house is, so I'll assume England somewhere?
For a 2700 sqft/250sqm house in the UK, that is a very, very high bill. Check your meter (I heard that some were converted to metric from imperial, but are still being charged as 'old units' - or something like that). Then check your boiler controls - how often is it firing and for how long? If you're heating a tank of hot water with it, it is possible to get a rough estimate of how efficient it is by measuring how much gas it takes to heat the tank from cold to warm. Check you're not running the rads in summer, or loosing heat elsewhere.
If your boiler is 40 yrs old, given that a new one big enough to heat your place is around the price you're paying for a couple of month's heating, I'd swap for a new one as a matter of course. If you're in a rustic location, you can further reduce your fuel costs by burning wood - but not in an open fireplace, and not expensive logs bought from the local garage. Ideally, put in a log burner (and/or a log boiler) and either cut your own wood or get a bulk delivery of at least a couple of tonnes.
However, it sounds like your problem is going to be the insulation of your home. You need to get that professionally sorted, as changing the structure and ventilation of a home can lead to rot and mould. On the whole you loose the most heat through ventilation - even a solid wall lets a surprising amount of air through, and a tiny hole next to a window can have a dramatic effect. Windows are the next culprits, followed by thin and un-insulated walls - though if you've got single brick walls, they'll dominate the loss.
Finally, try to only heat the places you need to. If one end of the house is unoccupied most of the time, don't heat it. Thermostats on radiators are vital, and zoned heat control with timers can make sure you're not heating your bedroom for the 16 hours of the day you're not in it. A nice hot stove in your main room can give a wonderful heat, and you can let it go out overnight and re-light it the following day when you actually need it.
You've not said where this house is, so I'll assume England somewhere?
For a 2700 sqft/250sqm house in the UK, that is a very, very high bill. Check your meter (I heard that some were converted to metric from imperial, but are still being charged as 'old units' - or something like that). Then check your boiler controls - how often is it firing and for how long? If you're heating a tank of hot water with it, it is possible to get a rough estimate of how efficient it is by measuring how much gas it takes to heat the tank from cold to warm. Check you're not running the rads in summer, or loosing heat elsewhere.
If your boiler is 40 yrs old, given that a new one big enough to heat your place is around the price you're paying for a couple of month's heating, I'd swap for a new one as a matter of course. If you're in a rustic location, you can further reduce your fuel costs by burning wood - but not in an open fireplace, and not expensive logs bought from the local garage. Ideally, put in a log burner (and/or a log boiler) and either cut your own wood or get a bulk delivery of at least a couple of tonnes.
However, it sounds like your problem is going to be the insulation of your home. You need to get that professionally sorted, as changing the structure and ventilation of a home can lead to rot and mould. On the whole you loose the most heat through ventilation - even a solid wall lets a surprising amount of air through, and a tiny hole next to a window can have a dramatic effect. Windows are the next culprits, followed by thin and un-insulated walls - though if you've got single brick walls, they'll dominate the loss.
Finally, try to only heat the places you need to. If one end of the house is unoccupied most of the time, don't heat it. Thermostats on radiators are vital, and zoned heat control with timers can make sure you're not heating your bedroom for the 16 hours of the day you're not in it. A nice hot stove in your main room can give a wonderful heat, and you can let it go out overnight and re-light it the following day when you actually need it.
Thanks for the feedback guys - it's much appreciated
RL - I figured as much myself. I'll check out those links over the weekend. Thank you.
Tuna - Not England, Glasgow. More heating required up here I'm afraid.
On your other points.....
The estimate was from the current residents. I assure you I won't be putting up with bills like that without checking all of your suggested targets or cladding my entire family in silver bubble wrap..
House is in the suburbs so no ready supply of free wood. Neighbours shed does look tempting though.
As to the house - yes insulation will be my priority. I was intending on doing it myself but will get some quotes from professionals as the cost saving may not outweigh the hassle factor. The wall are solid sandstone and I'd estimate 20 - 24 inches thick. The windows appear to be in good order but I'll be checking them out as soon as we move in. As I mentioned the rooms are good size but there isn't loads of them meaning I'll pretty much have to heat the whole house rather than closing down the east wing for the winter.
RL - I figured as much myself. I'll check out those links over the weekend. Thank you.
Tuna - Not England, Glasgow. More heating required up here I'm afraid.
On your other points.....
The estimate was from the current residents. I assure you I won't be putting up with bills like that without checking all of your suggested targets or cladding my entire family in silver bubble wrap..
House is in the suburbs so no ready supply of free wood. Neighbours shed does look tempting though.
As to the house - yes insulation will be my priority. I was intending on doing it myself but will get some quotes from professionals as the cost saving may not outweigh the hassle factor. The wall are solid sandstone and I'd estimate 20 - 24 inches thick. The windows appear to be in good order but I'll be checking them out as soon as we move in. As I mentioned the rooms are good size but there isn't loads of them meaning I'll pretty much have to heat the whole house rather than closing down the east wing for the winter.
motco said:
Just shows that if a advert says "we're the best" often enough, with sufficient 'celeb' weathermen to read the message, it works! I seem to recall a previous thread on good boilers mentioning Vaillant...
Nah - I don't listen to the adverts but to two friends who fit and fix boilers. I didn't say they were the best, just that they seem to be the best price/performance balance 
Tuna said:
Open fireplaces? Also check for ventilated voids under floorboards - that'll let a lot of cold air in.
Extremely good points. In our current house the lounge, with laminate on top of a suspended wooden floor over a ventilated void, loses a shocking amount of heat. In mid-winter the floor was so cold we were putting shoes on to go in there. In our dining room we have a fireplace which I am considering making some kind of baffle for. On a windy day you can hear the air being sucked under the door.our old house was a little smaller 2300 and we paid about £110 per month in gas. It was a 400 year old lathe and plaster affair. When we got it there was little insulation at all. We put a lot in the loft, secondary on the windows and sealed what holes we could but there was always a breeze blowing in from somewhere. Over the winter we burned probably £80 per month on logs and coal using two multifuel burners..
Our boiler was a potterton, about 20 years old and from memory about 75% efficient.
I'm hoping the new house (bigger, more modern but also with sod all insulation) will be better, especially as we've just spent £2k on a new super efficient valient boiler!
D
Our boiler was a potterton, about 20 years old and from memory about 75% efficient.
I'm hoping the new house (bigger, more modern but also with sod all insulation) will be better, especially as we've just spent £2k on a new super efficient valient boiler!
D
Playsatan said:
Tuna - Not England, Glasgow. More heating required up here I'm afraid.
He didn't notice that you said:- "We currently stay in a new build..." That, in my experience of travelling across the border, is a very Scottish expression - much like "outwith", never heard from anyone born south of the border. It's the richness of dialect that Great Britain has and that we should rejoice in rather than chuck rocks at each other.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff