Want a TVR as next car, but which?

[dalla]

Hi Guys

I have decided to try and sell my S2 Lotus Europa this winter. If i succeed in selling it, i have decided i want a TVR. I want something a bit more modern, that is also actually capable of making a trip to LeMans.

I have been looking a lot on Griff 500's. It is a beautiful car and it must offer the best performance of the bunch? As i live in Denmark, i will probably have to import one from the UK, but as our car tax are rediculously high, i would like one as old as possible (lower tax), but i understand, the ones to go for are post 95 cars, as they have the T5 gearbox?

I do like the Griffith, but every time i look at it, i cant help myself but to sneak in and look at Wedges. My favorite TVR is a SEAC, so if the right SEAC came up for sale i guess it would be a no brainer.
But i just can't help think that the cars like the 400SE offers incredible bang for your buck?
But how is it to live with? How is it parts wise compared to Griffth and Chimera?
What is it like build quality wise, i imagine that the Griff/Chim must be better built, as they are later cars?
Lastly but still important. How is the performance of a i.e. 400SE? Can it be compared to a Pre-Cat Griff?
Also how much more performance does a Griff 500 offer?


Hope you can help

BR
Dennis

[Omerta]

Quite a few different topics here...

All the models you're talking about are 10+ years old and their condition and reliability now will depend mostly on how previous owners have cared for them. A well cared for 1990 wedge may well give you more years of trouble free motoring and trips to Le Mans than a 2001 Griffith that has been neglected. Buy on condition and have it properly checked out, preferably by someone who knows what they're looking for.

Mechanically, handling and performance-wise there's not a great deal of difference between any of the Rover v8 V8 powered TVRs (obviously a 5 litre is quicker than a 3.5 litre, but a 5l wedge goes about the same as a 5l Griffith) so which one you buy is really up to your personal preference for looks and budget. You'll obviously pay a lot more for a Griffith than an equivalent spec and condition wedge or Chimaera. Many have had performance or handling mods - adjustable dampers, decatted, etc - which can make a big difference to the driving experience.

Best advice is to get up close to a few and test drive them because you need to engage all your senses in the decision - hearing, touch and smell are a big part of the TVR experience IMO - which for you I guess means getting your ass over to the UK for a couple of days.

[dalla]

Omerta said:

Quite a few different topics here...

All the models you're talking about are 10+ years old and their condition and reliability now will depend mostly on how previous owners have cared for them. A well cared for 1990 wedge may well give you more years of trouble free motoring and trips to Le Mans than a 2001 Griffith that has been neglected. Buy on condition and have it properly checked out, preferably by someone who knows what they're looking for.

Mechanically, handling and performance-wise there's not a great deal of difference between any of the Rover v8 V8 powered TVRs (obviously a 5 litre is quicker than a 3.5 litre, but a 5l wedge goes about the same as a 5l Griffith) so which one you buy is really up to your personal preference for looks and budget. You'll obviously pay a lot more for a Griffith than an equivalent spec and condition wedge or Chimaera. Many have had performance or handling mods - adjustable dampers, decatted, etc - which can make a big difference to the driving experience.

Best advice is to get up close to a few and test drive them because you need to engage all your senses in the decision - hearing, touch and smell are a big part of the TVR experience IMO - which for you I guess means getting your ass over to the UK for a couple of days.

Cheers mate, i defenietly need to get my ass to the UK. But first i need to get the old Lotus shot off. I am very tempted by a Grifftih at the moment though. How much difference are there between a Pre Cat and a 5L?

[Omerta]

I might be corrected but 5l is going to be quicker (and newer) than a pre cat. In practical terms the difference isn't going to be much though and I'd still say make your choice on condition, history and the exterior/interior colour combo that does it for you.

[angry jock]

A good pre-cat 430 is as quick as an ordinary 500. Its only at really high speed that a 500 will pull away owing to the greater torque but up to motorway speed very similar. The biggest difference between the two is that a pre-car revs easier and has a much nicer noise
My advice would be to go and drive some and see what suits you best and if you do get one look at either chopping the hood or getting a folding surrey type roof.
HTH

[Chris71]

dalla said:

Also how much more performance does a Griff 500 offer?

In the real world a good 500 produces about 270bhp and (officially) weighs 1060kg. That's about 255bhp/ton, which puts it level with an Audi RS4 or a recent BMW M3. With no traction control and an awful lot of noise it will feel quicker, however.

As others have said above, you cannot stress just how much these vary. An exceptional 4-litre may be faster than a slightly underwhelming 500. Often the 450 is cited as the best of the bunch (in Chimaeras, don't know if they did that engine in the Griff?) as it has a reasonable portion of the 5-litre's grunt for less outlay and fewer reliability concerns. If you don't mind an earlier car the same could be said for the 430 - it comes a lot closer to the 4.5s and 5s in the real world than it does on paper and it has the added advantage of being a more 'racy', revvy engine.

The Griff is probably the best long term investment of the lot, the Chim is the most practical (and mechanically identical to its more hirsute, medallion wearing brother the Griff) and the Wedges will offer you the most for your initial outlay. For the price of a starter Griff you'll get a very special Wedge. There again, reputation holds that the Griffmaeara is a better handling car than the Wedge and I suspect it's also quicker in a straight line for the same spec.

[FlipFlopGriff]

Chris71 said:

In the real world a good 500 produces about 270bhp and (officially) weighs 1060kg.

3 pre cat 4.3's on the rolling road at the Growl between 272 and 282bhp with 300-310 torque so as good or better than a lot of 500's. Highest 500 was around 290 from memory.

Chimp is 100kg's heavier than a Griff, I like Wedges but many don't. Later Wedges and pre cat Griffs produced around the same time. All getting older now so little in it between a 90 car and a 96 car.
FFG

[Chilliman]

FFG, out of curiousity where do you get the 100kg weight difference from ? not doubting you, just interested to know...

[Flintstone]

dalla said:

I want something...that is also actually capable of making a trip to LeMans.

You're new here, I can tell.

[Chilliman]

Now why did I just KNOW I'd hear that Fair enough though, guess I asked for it...

[FlipFlopGriff]

Chilliman said:

FFG, out of curiousity where do you get the 100kg weight difference from ? not doubting you, just interested to know...

I'm sure i've read it somewhere but can't find on a quick search. Roof is about 18kg's plus that long ass, must be right. Never mind chucking the clubs in.
FFG

[Chris71]

FlipFlopGriff said:

Chris71 said:

In the real world a good 500 produces about 270bhp and (officially) weighs 1060kg.

3 pre cat 4.3's on the rolling road at the Growl between 272 and 282bhp with 300-310 torque so as good or better than a lot of 500's. Highest 500 was around 290 from memory.

Chimp is 100kg's heavier than a Griff, I like Wedges but many don't. Later Wedges and pre cat Griffs produced around the same time. All getting older now so little in it between a 90 car and a 96 car.
FFG

I'd be the first to agree about the 4.3s. The most rewarding engine in any of the cars I test drove was a 430 (BV spec I'm assuming) and I've heard of them equalling 500s on dyno days too.

Apologies if I was wrong on the weight. I was always told there was no significant difference between the two and I can;t say I picked up on it on the test drives. Much as we were saying about the engines, though, I suspect the condition of the car would outweigh the differences between the models. I'd be surprised if most people could tell the difference between a Griff and Chimaera of similar age, spec and condition. My personal take is the Griff is the more inconic model and hence the better investment, but the Chimaera is better value (being the poor relation ) and a bit more practical with a massive boot rather than simply an ample one!

[dalla]

Flintstone said:

You're new here, I can tell.

Cheers for the answers guys, relly appreciated. And allthough iam not new on PH, iam new in TVR section.
A Pre-Cat Griff sounds tempting then, i also really like the look of them on the OZ Splitties.

And regarding the above comment, would it really be an issue to drive a well maintained TVR V8 to france?
Surely it will be better that an 40 year old Renault engined Lotus?

[JR]

Chris71 said:

Apologies if I was wrong on the weight. I was always told there was no significant difference between the two and I can;t say I picked up on it on the test drives.

Shame on you. Although the Chim is only five inches longer the body weighs twice that of the Griff.

[dalla]

BTW, what about the Gearbox issue? Is it worth going for a car with a T5 gearbox?
I heard that they are virtually bulletproof?

[angry jock]

dalla said:

And regarding the above comment, would it really be an issue to drive a well maintained TVR V8 to france?
Surely it will be better that an 40 year old Renault engined Lotus?

My Griff has been to Le Mans from Northumberland twice(touch wood)without incident.
Also speaking to people at the Growl the LT77 gearbox, well maintained, seems to be as strong as the T5. I prefer 2nd and 3rd in the 430. As FFG said there is very little power difference and although I didnt RR mine there, before I bought it was showing 270 bhp and just under 300 torques.
Dalla best thing seriously is to go and drive them!!

[GadgeS3C]

Been to Le Mans many times with friends in an M, a Vixen and a Marcos 3ltr. Had the pleasure this year of going in our recently acquired 3000M. These "modern" TVR's must be unreliable compared to the old stuff

[Chris71]

GadgeS3C said:

Been to Le Mans many times with friends in an M, a Vixen and a Marcos 3ltr. Had the pleasure this year of going in our recently acquired 3000M. These "modern" TVR's must be unreliable compared to the old stuff

Tell me about it. We had a choice of taking my '97 Chimaera or my dad's '72 M Series on a 2,000 mile road trip a few months back. Guess which we took and ended up catastrophically breaking?

To be fair, we would have struggled to keep up in a 1600M, gorgeous as it looks it's not the quickest car TVR ever produced!

[Brummmie]

Having owned a 400se and a Chim, i preferred the 400se, it was more fun, and the lack of power steering in my Chim was shocking.
I swapped my funky engine between the 400/Chim and the engine went alot better in the Chim than the 400, the reason had to be the puny headers in the wedge, markedly so.
Scuttle shake on the 400 was quite bad, but other than that i really liked it..

[900T-R]

JR said:

Chris71 said:

Apologies if I was wrong on the weight. I was always told there was no significant difference between the two and I can;t say I picked up on it on the test drives.

Shame on you. Although the Chim is only five inches longer the body weighs twice that of the Griff.

H'm, that Classic & Sportscar article of last year for some reason perpetuated the same myth. FWIW, my Chim 430 was on the scales at Intrax and weighed at 1,043.5 kg with 40% of a tank fill, an air compressor with goo instead of the skinny spare but also a subwoofer with amp and a full toolkit. Kerb weight according to V5 1,050 kg, confirmed by the Dutch road authorities'weighbridge for tax reasons (VED based on vehicle kerb weight, and 430 Chim was not in 'the book' yet).

It's now down to 1,015 - 1,020...