spedeo calibration
Discussion
I have had a fixed fine for speeding the officer coudent tell me how fast i was going because he used his speedometer in the car,I have sent a letter to the cheff constable asking for the calibration certificate which he did not have but he said it had been chacked againsed a falcon speed enforcement device and was found to be accurate, could this be true? it was a Fort Focus not a trafic car, ecces of 30 i was told which the officer said he had to go up to fifty mph to catch me up without his ble lights on so he was braking the law himself.
Regards w
Regards w
williamjohn said:
ecces of 30 i was told which the officer said he had to go up to fifty mph to catch me up without his ble lights on so he was braking the law himself
Geez, how many times?
The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 provides traffic authorities with the authority to regulate traffic within their area.
Section 87 of the Act exempts certain emergency vehicles from speed limits if observance would hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose it was being used for on that occasion.
87. No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.
[rant on] And learn to spell and punctuate, FFS. [/rantoff]
>> Edited by WMHV70 on Friday 4th June 02:19
williamjohn said:Unfortunately this sort of remark is seized upon by magistrates (and newspapers) as "evidence" of the speed at which you were travelling.
"... which the officer said he had to go up to fifty mph to catch me up without his ble [sic] lights on so he was braking [sic] the law himself."
NB - the following figures are based upon crude computations and someone will probably (hopefully?) provide more accurate figures.
If the police vehicle was stationary with its engine off when you passed it at 30mph, by the time it had accelerated to 30mph you would have been some 117 yards further on. If you continued at 30mph as it accelerated to 50mph, at that point you would have been some 146 yards away from the "start" and it would have covered around 92 yards.
Continuing at your respective speeds, it would have taken the police vehicle a further 5 seconds to catch up to you and you would both have travelled about 215 yards (over 1/10 of a mile).
At 35mph (APCO guideline for 30mph limit) the latter figures above are, respectively, around 11 seconds and 360 yards; at 40 they are some 21 seconds and 605 yards (over 1/3 mile); at 45 they are approximately 52 seconds and 1364 yards (over 3/4 of a mile); at 50mph the police vehicle would, of course, never catch you.
Some inaccuracy in computation notwithstanding, the fundamental argument remains that the speed of 50mph reflects the fact that the police vehicle needed to catch up to you and, on its own, is no measure of the speed at which you were travelling. Time (or distance) is the other factor but this can be a "killer". It is highly unlikely that the officer concerned either timed the incident or measured the distance they travelled, and it is very possible that they will over-estimate both. This works against you, as the longer it took to catch you to you (or the greater the distance travelled in catching you up), the faster you must have been going (by implication). In this case, you could attack the start-up and acceleration of the police vehicle and factor in traffic, etc., impeding the start of the "chase". A delay of just one second adds 2.5 seconds and 30 yards at 30mph, 3s and 50yd at 35, 5s and 100yd at 40, and 10s and 140yd at 45. The officer will likely have no good idea of how much time elapsed before they began the "chase".
Of course, this is purely academic; even reasoned argument with explanatory charts is unlikely to convince a magistrate that you were not "racing along the High Street at 50 mph to the endangerment of Her Majesty's citizens and as a source of additional revenue for the Chancellor of the Exchequer!"
Streaky
The focussed Plod on seeing you, in his opinion, doing too much wellie, would size 10 down and get on your rear. Keeping a constant distance behind you, yes it is easy to do, would follow you for at least two tenths of a mile (ACPO instruction), during which time he would make a mental note of the maximum/minimal speeds shown by the speedo of his vehicle (corroboration). Reads like you were caught in a 30 so there would be little wow and flutter if speedo was not calibrated = steady needle model. Pull, Ticket.
Before end of shift check speedo by travelling over a measured mile at a constant speed and using a stopwatch. 60mph = 60 secs, 50 = 1.12secs etc. Plus or minus 2 secs out acceptable. Job done, doughnut time.
Nicholas v Penny 1950 - Biggest wigs in legal field after much consideration held person could be convicted on evidence of 1 (One) Plod supported by reading from a speedometer even though there was no evidence that speedometer had been tested. Limit exceeded was above 10 mph but they did state that if this had been say 2 mph over then they would have called for evidence speedo accuracy.
Sit down the rest of you and stop those murmers - Oh mah gawd look at speedo, look at rear mirror, no eyes for road.
Smiling when you pay up makes the mind accept the inevitable and less painful.
DVD
DVD
Before end of shift check speedo by travelling over a measured mile at a constant speed and using a stopwatch. 60mph = 60 secs, 50 = 1.12secs etc. Plus or minus 2 secs out acceptable. Job done, doughnut time.
Nicholas v Penny 1950 - Biggest wigs in legal field after much consideration held person could be convicted on evidence of 1 (One) Plod supported by reading from a speedometer even though there was no evidence that speedometer had been tested. Limit exceeded was above 10 mph but they did state that if this had been say 2 mph over then they would have called for evidence speedo accuracy.
Sit down the rest of you and stop those murmers - Oh mah gawd look at speedo, look at rear mirror, no eyes for road.
Smiling when you pay up makes the mind accept the inevitable and less painful.
DVD
DVD
This is the letter i sent, which i had a reply to say the tiket had been suspended intil futher, and now they have desided the officer never lies and pay up and if the date of payment has past there is 50% on top
or go to cort
I have an official complaint against two officers. I am a ministry of transport tester and a respected member of the community. My job is constantly under scrutiny so I make a point of following the law inside and outside of the testing centre as it is a good job and helps me provide for my nine children. On 24/February/2004 I had been on a brake down at the Beeches in Llandysul. As I was travelling in the direction of Horeb, I saw a police car in the distance as I looked in my rear view mirror. I noticed that my Speedo was on 30 mph. It might seem as if I was going faster, but the diesel engine of my car was cold and I was in second gear because of the lack of power and the weight of my car. I noticed that the police car was pulling up on me very fast and followed me for half a mile until I went out off the 30 mph limit and entered the A486.
The officer turned on the flashing lights on the A486 and I stopped. I was asked to get out of my vehicle and went to the police car o/s rear seat. I was told that I had been speeding,
Which I strongly denied and told the officer that I had only been traveling at 30 mph. He said that they had to go up to 45 mph to catch me, and that I had the option of the fixed penalty offence, or go to court. I asked the officer how could they go up to 45mph without having the flashing lights on and what evidence did they have that proved that I was speeding. He replied, we have the power to do what we want, and there are two of us in this vehicle. I felt that they were very threatening.
I don’t like things like this, that some officers can abuse their powers to such extremes that they can accused me of speeding when I was not. It was the officers that were breaking the law by speeding without their flashing light on. These officers should be charged for this offence not me.
Can you please look into this matter with great detail and urgency , and could you also sent me a copy of the calibration certificate of the police vehicle Speedo for this particular day as they say that this speedo is their evidence My car Reg is xxxxxxxand the ticket nu is xxxxxx officer nu is PCxxx Evans. I wait for your reply before I contact my solicitor and take the matter further.
or go to cort
I have an official complaint against two officers. I am a ministry of transport tester and a respected member of the community. My job is constantly under scrutiny so I make a point of following the law inside and outside of the testing centre as it is a good job and helps me provide for my nine children. On 24/February/2004 I had been on a brake down at the Beeches in Llandysul. As I was travelling in the direction of Horeb, I saw a police car in the distance as I looked in my rear view mirror. I noticed that my Speedo was on 30 mph. It might seem as if I was going faster, but the diesel engine of my car was cold and I was in second gear because of the lack of power and the weight of my car. I noticed that the police car was pulling up on me very fast and followed me for half a mile until I went out off the 30 mph limit and entered the A486.
The officer turned on the flashing lights on the A486 and I stopped. I was asked to get out of my vehicle and went to the police car o/s rear seat. I was told that I had been speeding,
Which I strongly denied and told the officer that I had only been traveling at 30 mph. He said that they had to go up to 45 mph to catch me, and that I had the option of the fixed penalty offence, or go to court. I asked the officer how could they go up to 45mph without having the flashing lights on and what evidence did they have that proved that I was speeding. He replied, we have the power to do what we want, and there are two of us in this vehicle. I felt that they were very threatening.
I don’t like things like this, that some officers can abuse their powers to such extremes that they can accused me of speeding when I was not. It was the officers that were breaking the law by speeding without their flashing light on. These officers should be charged for this offence not me.
Can you please look into this matter with great detail and urgency , and could you also sent me a copy of the calibration certificate of the police vehicle Speedo for this particular day as they say that this speedo is their evidence My car Reg is xxxxxxxand the ticket nu is xxxxxx officer nu is PCxxx Evans. I wait for your reply before I contact my solicitor and take the matter further.
I have been told that fixed fines are used under section 45a which cant be found because it has not been past by the crown, and raising the fine is also illegal and the magistrates don’t like it when you explain to them how can the police do your job for them.
My friend has just won against the DVLA the sorn they charged him for using the car on the road without tax while the car was in the garage getting repairs with no engine.
Since they had no prove of seeing the car on the road and he explained to them that DVLA are taking their jobs they dismissed the charge
Well done
My friend has just won against the DVLA the sorn they charged him for using the car on the road without tax while the car was in the garage getting repairs with no engine.
Since they had no prove of seeing the car on the road and he explained to them that DVLA are taking their jobs they dismissed the charge
Well done
Dwight VanDriver said:
[ ... ]
Before end of shift check speedo by travelling over a measured mile at a constant speed and using a stopwatch. 60mph = 60 secs, 50 = 1.12secs etc. Plus or minus 2 secs out acceptable. Job done, doughnut time.
DVD/BiB - Nicholas v Penny 1950 notwithstanding, I should be grateful you enlighten us by answering thse questions, the first is somewhat rhetorical.
1) How many "measured miles" are there that can be driven at a constant indicated speed (30,40,60, etc.)? If the speed is not constant over the measured mile only the average speed is estimated. [PHers - no, "It's dangerous to look constantly at the speedo for one mile!" comments, please.]
2) Do all police officers in cars (including "pandas") carry a stopwatch? If not, how is the time checked ... by using the second hand on a wrist-watch maybe
? Those of us who have an independent means of displaying speed (e.g. Origin B2) know that the difference between the indicated speed and the actual speed varies across the speedometer range (typically the speedometer increasingly over-estimates).
3) So, does the speedometer have to be checked at different speeds? If so, are there set speeds?
4) Do the speeds at which the speedometer reading is checked have to include the alleged speed(s) of "target" vehicle(s)?
5) Say someone was alleged to have been travelling at 90mph, would the police vehicle's speedometer have to be checked for that speed, or would a check at (say) 30mph be considered sufficient?
6) And, finally, how is this speed checking "policed"? Presumably it is just on the officers say-so [PHers - other threads and posters (where are you "Outlaw/Roadrage"?) have made their feelings plain on police veracity, so not here, please]?
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Wednesday 9th June 06:46
GHR
I can only speak for my old Force as others have the luxury of a rolling road.
1. From a certified chain by Trading Standards a Highways wheel is checked and used to measure out at various sites, that which form a basis for measured miles. Half miles acceptable.Road chosen is as straight as possible and away from heavy traffic. Possible in our delightful county. Metropolitan areas generally had rolling roads.
2. No. One collected from Office together with a witness/operator if single crewed. Anticipating the Marker posts for the mile stop watch clicked as it is passed. Anticipation cuts down any error from reaction time. Stop watch checked annually for accuracy.
3. Speedo checked on two runs, 10 mph above, 10 mph below i.e. for a 60 done at 50 and 70.
4. No see 3
5. Have done this when traffic/conditions permitted (vehicle being used for police purposes!!!!) but not actually required as highest 80 see (3)
6. 2 officers involved in check. Each signed the others Pocket Book "In company with PC Bloggs tested speedo on patrol car ?????? by means of a stopwatch over the measured mile at...... at speeds of 60 mph/50 mph. Time recorded 1min 1 sec/1.13secs. Speedo correct."
....Yes a 2 sec plus/minus error allowed. Any variance above 2mph then re-checked and if readings out case dropped, investigation as to whether speedo faulty or stopwatch.Had the former never the later.
DVD
I can only speak for my old Force as others have the luxury of a rolling road.
1. From a certified chain by Trading Standards a Highways wheel is checked and used to measure out at various sites, that which form a basis for measured miles. Half miles acceptable.Road chosen is as straight as possible and away from heavy traffic. Possible in our delightful county. Metropolitan areas generally had rolling roads.
2. No. One collected from Office together with a witness/operator if single crewed. Anticipating the Marker posts for the mile stop watch clicked as it is passed. Anticipation cuts down any error from reaction time. Stop watch checked annually for accuracy.
3. Speedo checked on two runs, 10 mph above, 10 mph below i.e. for a 60 done at 50 and 70.
4. No see 3
5. Have done this when traffic/conditions permitted (vehicle being used for police purposes!!!!) but not actually required as highest 80 see (3)
6. 2 officers involved in check. Each signed the others Pocket Book "In company with PC Bloggs tested speedo on patrol car ?????? by means of a stopwatch over the measured mile at...... at speeds of 60 mph/50 mph. Time recorded 1min 1 sec/1.13secs. Speedo correct."
....Yes a 2 sec plus/minus error allowed. Any variance above 2mph then re-checked and if readings out case dropped, investigation as to whether speedo faulty or stopwatch.Had the former never the later.
DVD
Slightly controversial post this, sorry chaps.
Like to keep a check on my speedo and do a proper job when new motor arrives. To do this use the measured miles as advised by friendly traffic bods, sorry smack wrist, road policing officers.
Near our local HQ there are five separate measured miles, all clearly identifiable, and located such that with care the timing is sortable on your own. A sixth where the markings are such that you really need an observer and imo only usable at 30. For rest of info see DVD's post.
However in a previous location wanted to find out where the measured miles were so found a traffic bod and asked. On face value very, nay extremely, helpful reply, exactly where they were, identifying markers, all in all a proper job. Except that as he was describing this to me noticed his mate getting something of a shifty expression. Thought nothing of it till later.
So went out to locations as described, were the markers there? Were they buggery, sometimes a start marker but no end marker, and vice versa.
Two weeks later noticed driving down one of the roads, brand new set of markers exactly in positions described. Led me to wonder if for some the regular report in the notebook was based on fact or fiction. After the conversaton with me had they checked thought oops and reported it? Will never know. Not DVD's area he'll be relieved to know.
In this case after the surveyor had done his job four measured miles available.
As usual nothing in this post is intended to offend, just facts and one supposition.
FiF
Like to keep a check on my speedo and do a proper job when new motor arrives. To do this use the measured miles as advised by friendly traffic bods, sorry smack wrist, road policing officers.
Near our local HQ there are five separate measured miles, all clearly identifiable, and located such that with care the timing is sortable on your own. A sixth where the markings are such that you really need an observer and imo only usable at 30. For rest of info see DVD's post.
However in a previous location wanted to find out where the measured miles were so found a traffic bod and asked. On face value very, nay extremely, helpful reply, exactly where they were, identifying markers, all in all a proper job. Except that as he was describing this to me noticed his mate getting something of a shifty expression. Thought nothing of it till later.
So went out to locations as described, were the markers there? Were they buggery, sometimes a start marker but no end marker, and vice versa.
Two weeks later noticed driving down one of the roads, brand new set of markers exactly in positions described. Led me to wonder if for some the regular report in the notebook was based on fact or fiction. After the conversaton with me had they checked thought oops and reported it? Will never know. Not DVD's area he'll be relieved to know.
In this case after the surveyor had done his job four measured miles available.
As usual nothing in this post is intended to offend, just facts and one supposition.
FiF
I know what you are saying FiF and damn it I cannot rebut completely, who can, but I did 30 years in the job during which similar suggestions were made. Not once did I come across what you suggest for our crowd practiced if Joe Public was going to get stung, then the nail was driven in hard and every scrap of evidence obtained/ adhered to. Ploddaughter tells me that philosphy still stands despite much easier now to do through Penalty Tickets as opposed to swearing by Almighty God in the witness box.
Re marker posts. I can still go down the one near me and plot out the mile without use of the actual posts from other features. Used it that many times.
Naughty boy for suggesting such a thing.
DVD
Re marker posts. I can still go down the one near me and plot out the mile without use of the actual posts from other features. Used it that many times.
Naughty boy for suggesting such a thing.
DVD
DVD, smacked wrist accepted for suggesting such a thing.
P always used to tell his crew, "it's gotta be right! Nearly right is not good enough! Think, 'what if it were you in the dock, how would you raise a defence?' If a particular defence is possible then investigate to see if that might just be the case in truth. If not then another loophole closed."
He and I reckon that's still decent advice.
P always used to tell his crew, "it's gotta be right! Nearly right is not good enough! Think, 'what if it were you in the dock, how would you raise a defence?' If a particular defence is possible then investigate to see if that might just be the case in truth. If not then another loophole closed."
He and I reckon that's still decent advice.
williamjohn said:Er!
It acyuely shows now that the police is apome the law he wont ven resine when the home office tels him to pis off well in a week he will have to go .
"Humberside Police Authority has refused to suspend the chief constable, David Westwood. This has raised the stakes in the battle of wills with the home secretary to an unprecedented level.
David Blunkett's warning that he will be taking "the necessary legal steps" early next week can only mean one thing - that he will ask a judge to order the police authority to comply with the law. This has never happened before.
[ ... ]
One former chief constable knows what it is like to bear the full force of the home secretary's wrath. Paul Whitehouse headed the Sussex force when David Blunkett became Home Secretary in June 2001.
Within weeks, Mr Blunkett - in a move designed to send a strong signal to police chiefs - made it clear he expected Sussex Police Authority to remove Mr Whitehouse from office following a number of highly critical reports related to the fatal shooting of a man by firearms officers and Mr Whitehouse resigned, after realising that he did not have the full support of his police authority.
Mr Whitehouse believes there is another agenda at work here. Yesterday [26 June 2004 - S], he said, "The Jome Secretary wants to extend his control. ... This is a way of showing who's in charge."
Streaky
[Minor editing of original (BBC) text to ease readability.]
Those up to speed on this saga will appreciate that the fault/blame goes higher than the CC Humberside but no Home Office policy in a standard Police procedure on gossip intelligence. Who is the head of Home Office?
Could it be that to save his own miserable neck the best method of defence is to attack?
Now Rev Bichard, appointed by HMG to do the enquiry, is hardly likely to pile the smelly stuff at the door of his employers is he? Not a word of censure.
If Wetblanket gets his way then no longer can it be said that the Police are independent from HMG. The local Police Committee should be the ones to judge.
DVD
Could it be that to save his own miserable neck the best method of defence is to attack?
Now Rev Bichard, appointed by HMG to do the enquiry, is hardly likely to pile the smelly stuff at the door of his employers is he? Not a word of censure.
If Wetblanket gets his way then no longer can it be said that the Police are independent from HMG. The local Police Committee should be the ones to judge.
DVD
DVD as usual hits nail on head.
I know we all love to hate him but didn't Richard Brunstorm CC N Wales actually go on the record as saying the enquiry findings implicated much higher than CC Humberside. I think he actually said that the Home Office and Blunkett were as much to blame.
By the way how did we get from speedo calibration to the outcome of the Soham investigation ??
I've heard of threads being hijacked and going off at a tangent but blood and stomach pills, is this a record?
FiF
I know we all love to hate him but didn't Richard Brunstorm CC N Wales actually go on the record as saying the enquiry findings implicated much higher than CC Humberside. I think he actually said that the Home Office and Blunkett were as much to blame.
By the way how did we get from speedo calibration to the outcome of the Soham investigation ??
I've heard of threads being hijacked and going off at a tangent but blood and stomach pills, is this a record?
FiF
The police dealing with a speeding offence are under no obligation to show you the recorded speed on any device that they are operating and under no obligation to shiow you the calibration certs at the roadside. If you contest the offence then such matters will come at the point of disclosure or heard in Court. The reason is that you are charged not with driving at a particular speed but for being in excess of the limit for that road.
The charge is in XS and so the recorded speed is not the issue. Many times driver go to Court and argue that they were not doing 103mph on the M/Way but only 96mph and wonder why they are still convicted.
The same is true of the lower limits, I was only doing 33mph, well its XS the limit so convicted.
Bets practise is not to pace the car you are checking, but rther allow it to be drawing away ever so slightly and then you are able to say it was travelling at not less than ...mph It makes for a better case and is dfair to the driver you are checking.
The small police car is okay and the speedo is a "witness2 in the eys of the law and corrobortaed by the officer viewing it, so any arguements about his word against yours wont hold. The integrity of the officer and his presentation of the evidence can be challenf=ged but if he knows what he is doing so are on a loser.
The charge is in XS and so the recorded speed is not the issue. Many times driver go to Court and argue that they were not doing 103mph on the M/Way but only 96mph and wonder why they are still convicted.
The same is true of the lower limits, I was only doing 33mph, well its XS the limit so convicted.
Bets practise is not to pace the car you are checking, but rther allow it to be drawing away ever so slightly and then you are able to say it was travelling at not less than ...mph It makes for a better case and is dfair to the driver you are checking.
The small police car is okay and the speedo is a "witness2 in the eys of the law and corrobortaed by the officer viewing it, so any arguements about his word against yours wont hold. The integrity of the officer and his presentation of the evidence can be challenf=ged but if he knows what he is doing so are on a loser.
williamjohn
its very easy for you to post on here about your side of the event, there are 2 sides to the story and the place for this to be tested is in Court.
Why does having a cold engine prevent you going over 30mph, How far had you travelled that day then?
Where does it say that you have to have emergency lights on to exceed a speed limit? Its your right to defend yourself and challenge if you feel that things are not as they should be, But to rubbish 2 officers simply because you feel aggrieved is not right either. Have your day in Court.
its very easy for you to post on here about your side of the event, there are 2 sides to the story and the place for this to be tested is in Court.
Why does having a cold engine prevent you going over 30mph, How far had you travelled that day then?
Where does it say that you have to have emergency lights on to exceed a speed limit? Its your right to defend yourself and challenge if you feel that things are not as they should be, But to rubbish 2 officers simply because you feel aggrieved is not right either. Have your day in Court.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff