Porsche (996) driving advice please
Discussion
I have just purchased a 1yr old 996 C2 with PSM and would apreciate a bit of advice on the handleing.
Are they still prone to loosing the back end in a big way?
Do you get a light front end feel at high speed due to the rear engine?
Coming from a front engine TVR is there any advice you would give going to a rear engine car?
Are they still prone to loosing the back end in a big way?
Do you get a light front end feel at high speed due to the rear engine?
Coming from a front engine TVR is there any advice you would give going to a rear engine car?
They are more erm rear happy than a front engined car if you lift off at inappropriate moments, on bends. So my tip is to not lift off! More seriously though, gently does it to begin with as you learn how the thing handles. And perhaps some driver training would boost your confidence.
With the proviso that I accept no liability for the consequences, can I comment?
Older 911's have a reputation as a difficult car to handle and prone to letting go at the limit. This was / is undoubtedly made worse by lifting off rather than remaining committed, but this is true to some extent of most cars. I well remember the consequences for a colleague at Castle Combe when in an instructors road going standard Pug 306 he ignored what he was told and lifted, ending up stuffed into the marshal’s post! This reputation has IMHO been overdone for some time now, and I think 993 and 996 incarnations (probably 964 too) are cars which handle exceptionally well. Indeed if you have handled A TVR without mishap, I would be surprised if you did not find the 911 a doddle. The PSM is a fantastic system. The advice re taking some instruction is very well made. I went out for a day with Don Palmer in my 996 C4S, and he was incredibly complimentary about the cars abilities (as opposed to mine
) both with and without PSM. However the difference is very noticeable, and whilst by the end of the day I was thoroughly enjoying hooning with it off, I always leave it on in normal road use. As always the advice to go easy at first is sensible, but don't let the myths re dodgy handling affect your enjoyment of a great car.
Steve
Older 911's have a reputation as a difficult car to handle and prone to letting go at the limit. This was / is undoubtedly made worse by lifting off rather than remaining committed, but this is true to some extent of most cars. I well remember the consequences for a colleague at Castle Combe when in an instructors road going standard Pug 306 he ignored what he was told and lifted, ending up stuffed into the marshal’s post! This reputation has IMHO been overdone for some time now, and I think 993 and 996 incarnations (probably 964 too) are cars which handle exceptionally well. Indeed if you have handled A TVR without mishap, I would be surprised if you did not find the 911 a doddle. The PSM is a fantastic system. The advice re taking some instruction is very well made. I went out for a day with Don Palmer in my 996 C4S, and he was incredibly complimentary about the cars abilities (as opposed to mine
) both with and without PSM. However the difference is very noticeable, and whilst by the end of the day I was thoroughly enjoying hooning with it off, I always leave it on in normal road use. As always the advice to go easy at first is sensible, but don't let the myths re dodgy handling affect your enjoyment of a great car. Steve
Hi Mojorider
Congratulations on the purchase; you’ll have a good time with 996.
No they are not prone to dropping their rear end like earlier 911, but at the same time, it’s worth noting that ‘in extremis’ the engine still sits behind the rear wheels. Good drivers can exploit this as part of the ‘throttle adjustability’ of the chassis.
Other owners here may confirm that one way still to give a better front end feel of security at speed and at turn in, a decent weight in the front boot does the trick, as does a full tank of gas. Otherwise it’s never a waste of money to have the geometry checked to make sure factory tolerances are there.
One final thought; have some compassion for the clutch. Traction on a 911 is terrific and spinning their wheels means overcoming considerable rear wheel grip and the clutch is the weakest point. Burnouts aren’t a good idea.
If you take your driving seriously, there are some sound advanced driving gurus around – my favourite is Bernard Aubrey – or join up with the RMA or similar and have a session at somewhere like Bedford autodrome where you can throw the car about in some safety.
Enjoy!
Congratulations on the purchase; you’ll have a good time with 996.
No they are not prone to dropping their rear end like earlier 911, but at the same time, it’s worth noting that ‘in extremis’ the engine still sits behind the rear wheels. Good drivers can exploit this as part of the ‘throttle adjustability’ of the chassis.
Other owners here may confirm that one way still to give a better front end feel of security at speed and at turn in, a decent weight in the front boot does the trick, as does a full tank of gas. Otherwise it’s never a waste of money to have the geometry checked to make sure factory tolerances are there.
One final thought; have some compassion for the clutch. Traction on a 911 is terrific and spinning their wheels means overcoming considerable rear wheel grip and the clutch is the weakest point. Burnouts aren’t a good idea.
If you take your driving seriously, there are some sound advanced driving gurus around – my favourite is Bernard Aubrey – or join up with the RMA or similar and have a session at somewhere like Bedford autodrome where you can throw the car about in some safety.
Enjoy!
The following was posted a few moneths ago by Henry Firman of 911 Virgin. Sorry its pasted in- I havn't time today to work out how to attatch a link to the original thread from Nov 2003
James
I hear a lot of people talking about what to do if you "lose" the back end of a 911 when driving. Generally the advice is to "keep your foot rooted to the gas and turn into the spin", ie. if the car`s trying to spin to the right turn the wheel to the left.
On the road I`d think that advice would probably cause more problems in 80% of cases.
The reason most people loose the car is because they are accelerating too hard and the back end loses grip through a wheel-spining. If you`re turning the steering wheel when this happens the back of the car will swing round. Accelerating more will in fact increase the "wheel spin" at the back an worsten the situation.
This type of spin is most common when accelerating from low speed, particularly in a low gear like on a roundabout or slip road for instance.
The way to sort things out is to lift off the gas and try and balance the throttle so the wheel spinning stops. Don`t completely lift off the gas or brake.
The time you need to keep your foot on the power is when you`re cornering at high speed in a high gear on a good gripping surface and the back end starts to break away. In that instance applying power in effect loads the rear of the car with more weight and helps the tyres to grip. Once again never brake or lift off the power as this will effectively lighten the weight on the back tyres.
Sorry if this all sounds obvious and basic stuff but I`ll bet there are a load of people reading the forum who don`t differentiate between the two types of spinning and just remeber the advice to accelerate more.
In reality most spins occur accelerating from low speed and turning, mother nature and papa Porsche combine to help you avoid the high speed spin. Mother nature because you shit yourself when approaching a bend at high speed and tend to slow down before you arrive there. Papa Porsche because he engineers the car so that it understeers (you feel the steering wheel go light)first before it oversteers (the back end swings round).
If you do feel the steering wheel go light then once again very gently lift off the gas a little to balance the power (again don`t lift off fully or brake), and turn out of the bend if you can to help re-gain front grip, (ie. if you`re turning to the right then move the wheel to the left a bit to "open the bend up" as much as possible.
Best bit of advice - avoid the car sliding in the first place by driving slower, making sure your tyres are in good condition and reading the road. If there is a petrol station on a roundabout or junction don`t be too surprised if there is some residual diesel on the road surface from overfilled vehicles !
Keep smiling - Henry
James
I hear a lot of people talking about what to do if you "lose" the back end of a 911 when driving. Generally the advice is to "keep your foot rooted to the gas and turn into the spin", ie. if the car`s trying to spin to the right turn the wheel to the left.
On the road I`d think that advice would probably cause more problems in 80% of cases.
The reason most people loose the car is because they are accelerating too hard and the back end loses grip through a wheel-spining. If you`re turning the steering wheel when this happens the back of the car will swing round. Accelerating more will in fact increase the "wheel spin" at the back an worsten the situation.
This type of spin is most common when accelerating from low speed, particularly in a low gear like on a roundabout or slip road for instance.
The way to sort things out is to lift off the gas and try and balance the throttle so the wheel spinning stops. Don`t completely lift off the gas or brake.
The time you need to keep your foot on the power is when you`re cornering at high speed in a high gear on a good gripping surface and the back end starts to break away. In that instance applying power in effect loads the rear of the car with more weight and helps the tyres to grip. Once again never brake or lift off the power as this will effectively lighten the weight on the back tyres.
Sorry if this all sounds obvious and basic stuff but I`ll bet there are a load of people reading the forum who don`t differentiate between the two types of spinning and just remeber the advice to accelerate more.
In reality most spins occur accelerating from low speed and turning, mother nature and papa Porsche combine to help you avoid the high speed spin. Mother nature because you shit yourself when approaching a bend at high speed and tend to slow down before you arrive there. Papa Porsche because he engineers the car so that it understeers (you feel the steering wheel go light)first before it oversteers (the back end swings round).
If you do feel the steering wheel go light then once again very gently lift off the gas a little to balance the power (again don`t lift off fully or brake), and turn out of the bend if you can to help re-gain front grip, (ie. if you`re turning to the right then move the wheel to the left a bit to "open the bend up" as much as possible.
Best bit of advice - avoid the car sliding in the first place by driving slower, making sure your tyres are in good condition and reading the road. If there is a petrol station on a roundabout or junction don`t be too surprised if there is some residual diesel on the road surface from overfilled vehicles !
Keep smiling - Henry
JasonC
Yes I think so.
I think your 996 Turbo owners around here will confirm the car does not ‘oversteer’ out of hand. You’d have to work quite hard to get the back out; perhaps within the confines of a circuit, you can brake late enough whereby the weight transfer to the front wheels while turning will provoke the back to slide. If you can quickly get the power on to hold the slide (powerslide indeed) a few moments later, the 4WD system will transfer the energy through to the fronts (reducing it to the rear) so they start to unstuck and you start this funny sort of rocking as power and slip oscillates between front and rear. (One reason why 2 wheel drive is always preferable for race/circuit cars)
Of course, both the Turbo and C4S have an extremely intelligent 4 wheel drive systems which basically makes for a very stable platform on the road. In fact there is a predilection to understeer for the sake of stability built in and arguably, it ‘dulls’ some of the sensations that good drivers will recognize and exploit.
Unsticking a C4S is almost impossible; the extra sheer mumbo from the Turbo and it’s increased weight makes it slightly less difficult. Not entirely impossible though and they both retain the throttle adjustability whereby weight transfer assists which ever end of the car you’ve got the weight on (throttle off/front grips; throttle on/rear grips, unless power breaks it).
Point to make is that the speeds at which these limits are reached maybe seriously high. If you drop it, consequences maybe dire! Remember what goes up (speed!) must come down and it’s far tidier to follow the old Porsche adage – slow in, fast out (exploit the 911’s main advantage, traction).
Sorry about the excess verbage.
Yes I think so.
I think your 996 Turbo owners around here will confirm the car does not ‘oversteer’ out of hand. You’d have to work quite hard to get the back out; perhaps within the confines of a circuit, you can brake late enough whereby the weight transfer to the front wheels while turning will provoke the back to slide. If you can quickly get the power on to hold the slide (powerslide indeed) a few moments later, the 4WD system will transfer the energy through to the fronts (reducing it to the rear) so they start to unstuck and you start this funny sort of rocking as power and slip oscillates between front and rear. (One reason why 2 wheel drive is always preferable for race/circuit cars)
Of course, both the Turbo and C4S have an extremely intelligent 4 wheel drive systems which basically makes for a very stable platform on the road. In fact there is a predilection to understeer for the sake of stability built in and arguably, it ‘dulls’ some of the sensations that good drivers will recognize and exploit.
Unsticking a C4S is almost impossible; the extra sheer mumbo from the Turbo and it’s increased weight makes it slightly less difficult. Not entirely impossible though and they both retain the throttle adjustability whereby weight transfer assists which ever end of the car you’ve got the weight on (throttle off/front grips; throttle on/rear grips, unless power breaks it).
Point to make is that the speeds at which these limits are reached maybe seriously high. If you drop it, consequences maybe dire! Remember what goes up (speed!) must come down and it’s far tidier to follow the old Porsche adage – slow in, fast out (exploit the 911’s main advantage, traction).
Sorry about the excess verbage.
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