Current car vs F1 cars of old.

[Asterix]

My current runabout is a 2008 Porsche Cayman S - was just out on a quick drive and I wondered what year it could have lined up on a Formula 1 grid and have been competitive over a championship.

Trying to take into account the fact that I'd have modern rubber, brakes, fuel economy, reliability, robustness etc...

I wonder where it would figure. Probably as far back as the 50's is my initial thoughts.

What's your thoughts for a, say, 200hp/ton-ish sports car (let's take the Cayman S as the modern benchmark as it's hardly shabby and can turn a wheel ok) but with all the modern stuff?

Edited by Asterix on Thursday 4th August 19:34

[Paul_M3]

I can remember a programme which had Tiff Needell taking Stirling Moss around a track in a Ferrari. (I think it was a 599)

Stirling seemed astounded, and commented that it was much faster around the track than his old Grand Prix car.

[Forbes82]

Autocar put the Cayman S around Oulton Park full circuit in 2.02. Last year in the hscc pre66 F1 cars race fastestlap was a 1.55 (1963 lotus 25). There was a 1957 Cooper t43 that did a 1.57. I don't have any times for cars earlier than that in competative drivers hands, but it looks like late 50's f1 cars have about five seconds a lap on a cayman s (around oulton park anyway).

[Mini1275]

You'd be surprised just how quick a Formula One car from the 50's is/was.

[davepoth]

Mini1275 said:

You'd be surprised just how quick a Formula One car from the 50's is/was.

Generally the only limitation was the cojones of the driver.

[Asterix]

Cool

I'm glad to hear this - shows how amazing the men and machinery were.

However, as I mentioned - over a championship.

[Forbes82]

Paul_M3 said:

I can remember a programme which had Tiff Needell taking Stirling Moss around a track in a Ferrari. (I think it was a 599)

Stirling seemed astounded, and commented that it was much faster around the track than his old Grand Prix car.

Its hard to make comparisons without data from the same track, but EVO tests has the 599 only 3 secs a lap quicker than the cayman s around bedford autodrome, going from the comparisons between a Cayman and f1 cars above you would expect a late 50's F1 car to be a similar amount quicker.

I remember the episode and remember Stirlings reaction, perhaps it was age, the length of time since hes driven an f1 car, or simply being a passenger rather than driver, but personally i dont think the difference in overall laptime between a 599 and say a Lotus 18 would be very big, just they get there in different ways. The F1 cars of that era are all about momentum carried through corners, whereas a much heavier but more powerful 599 would be all hard acceleration and hard braking, perhaps giving the impression of higher speed.

[Paul_M3]

Forbes82 said:

Paul_M3 said:

I can remember a programme which had Tiff Needell taking Stirling Moss around a track in a Ferrari. (I think it was a 599)

Stirling seemed astounded, and commented that it was much faster around the track than his old Grand Prix car.

Its hard to make comparisons without data from the same track, but EVO tests has the 599 only 3 secs a lap quicker than the cayman s around bedford autodrome, going from the comparisons between a Cayman and f1 cars above you would expect a late 50's F1 car to be a similar amount quicker.

I remember the episode and remember Stirlings reaction, perhaps it was age, the length of time since hes driven an f1 car, or simply being a passenger rather than driver, but personally i dont think the difference in overall laptime between a 599 and say a Lotus 18 would be very big, just they get there in different ways. The F1 cars of that era are all about momentum carried through corners, whereas a much heavier but more powerful 599 would be all hard acceleration and hard braking, perhaps giving the impression of higher speed.

Very good points, and I think you may well be right. The same thing crossed my mind, although I imagine Stirling has driven a few historic cars relatively recently.

I don't know who Evo's drivers are when they do their laps, but perhaps an ex-F1 driver like Tiff would be getting a bit more out of the 599 and driving it right on the limit?

Either way, you're looking at something Ferrari 599 pace upwards to be competitive on a 50's F1 grid by the sounds of it. Shows how quick they really were back then.

[Forbes82]

Thought id pick a more popular track to give an approximate comparison of supercars vs old race cars. Supercar data from fastestlaps (mostly taken from various magazines, EVO etc) Race car data taken from results in the last few years of histroic race meetings.

Around the Silverstone Bridge GP track (the one before the new Arena layout)

F1 cars-
1956 BRM p25 (front engined) 2.11
1960 Lotus 18 (rear Engined) 2.06
1969 Matra MS80 (slicks and wings) 2.00
1979 Tyrell 009 1.41

Supercars-
Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce 2.08
Nissan GTR 2.10
Audi R8 4.2 2.12

[Paul_M3]

Forbes82 said:

Thought id pick a more popular track to give an approximate comparison of supercars vs old race cars. Supercar data from fastestlaps (mostly taken from various magazines, EVO etc) Race car data taken from results in the last few years of histroic race meetings.

Around the Silverstone Bridge GP track (the one before the new Arena layout)

F1 cars-
1956 BRM p25 (front engined) 2.11
1960 Lotus 18 (rear Engined) 2.06
1969 Matra MS80 (slicks and wings) 2.00
1979 Tyrell 009 1.41

Supercars-
Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce 2.08
Nissan GTR 2.10
Audi R8 4.2 2.12

That's really interesting, thanks.

So basically, in a supercar you'd be on the pace in the the late 50's.

After that, you'd be struggling in pretty much ANY road legal car.

[Forbes82]

Paul_M3 said:

Very good points, and I think you may well be right. The same thing crossed my mind, although I imagine Stirling has driven a few historic cars relatively recently.

I don't know who Evo's drivers are when they do their laps, but perhaps an ex-F1 driver like Tiff would be getting a bit more out of the 599 and driving it right on the limit?

Either way, you're looking at something Ferrari 599 pace upwards to be competitive on a 50's F1 grid by the sounds of it. Shows how quick they really were back then.

He has raced fairly recently, although not in f1 machinery, more 1950s sports racers. You could well be right, i would guess evo has a competant driver at the wheel, but there is a big different between a decent driver and one who managed to get to f1!

From the looks of it i'd say most supercars are just about hitting late 50's/early 60's level in terms of laptime, but its hard to tell without the direct comparisons.

It would make a great bit of TV, I'd love to see a Top Gear article pitting a Lotus 25 against a Bugatti Veyron!

[vladcjelli]

Careful, there have been a lot of features on Top Gear recently that look like they were simply lifted from these hallowed pages.

Keep an eye out for this one in the next series.

[Asterix]

I have copyright.

[F1GTRUeno]

vladcjelli said:

Careful, there have been a lot of features on Top Gear recently that look like they were simply lifted from these hallowed pages.

Keep an eye out for this one in the next series.

It's already been done near enough.

They did modern cars versus sports cars/rally cars.

Doubt they'd do it again.

[davepoth]

Seems like a good time to post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Ifcgl789E

And also this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRc18SfbnIM&fea...

Edited by davepoth on Thursday 4th August 21:43

[kiteless]

IIRC the final versions of the Cooper T45 pushed out ca. 350bhp and weighed about 550kg, so over 600bhp/tonne in the early 60's.

Not to be trifled with.

[kambites]

Paul_M3 said:

So basically, in a supercar you'd be on the pace in the the late 50's.

After that, you'd be struggling in pretty much ANY road legal car.

I think some of the "road legal track cars" would be a fair bit faster than any of those supercars. A Radical or Caparo would probably beat any F1 car until they started getting wings themselves?

[dr_gn]

Reminds me of a TV advert from the distant past which showed - IIRC an Audi Quattro road car edited into footage of a 1950's Grand Prix and winning the race. Caused a bit of controversy within the pages of Motor Sport at the time.

Can't remember what the advert was for - maybe Shell or Mobil?

[Asterix]

kambites said:

Paul_M3 said:

So basically, in a supercar you'd be on the pace in the the late 50's.

After that, you'd be struggling in pretty much ANY road legal car.

I think some of the "road legal track cars" would be a fair bit faster than any of those supercars. A Radical or Caparo would probably beat any F1 car until they started getting wings themselves?

I can't argue with the numbers above but I'm still surprised that modern rubber and brakes wouldn't make more of difference.

[Chris Sideways]

Forbes82 said:

Thought id pick a more popular track to give an approximate comparison of supercars vs old race cars. Supercar data from fastestlaps (mostly taken from various magazines, EVO etc) Race car data taken from results in the last few years of histroic race meetings.

Around the Silverstone Bridge GP track (the one before the new Arena layout)

F1 cars-
1956 BRM p25 (front engined) 2.11
1960 Lotus 18 (rear Engined) 2.06
1969 Matra MS80 (slicks and wings) 2.00
1979 Tyrell 009 1.41

Supercars-
Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce 2.08
Nissan GTR 2.10
Audi R8 4.2 2.12

Im not sure the track was the same i think it changed in 1990ish to the layout we have now(the old GP track as we now know it) before Luffield and Woodcote were just a quick chicane so im sure that the times of the old F1 cars look a lot faster then they really were due to the track being a lot faster.