Paddle/button gear shift for BEC - what systems?
Discussion
Guys,
Still looking into whether I go CE or BE for the next purchase.
I quite like the idea of a BE with paddle/button shift (as close to being Lewis Hamilton as I'll ever get
)
Have noticed a couple of different systems, can anyone enlighten me to the pros/cons etc of these systems?
I'm guessing that the 'button' type is mainly electronic (looking at the kliktronic website), and most of the cars with these retain the manual shif lever too.
There seems to be a fair bit of info available on this system but I still have a couple of questions.
1. Do you still need to use the clutch?
2. Presumably you need to make a slight lift of the throttle during up-changes, and blip on the down-change?
Now for the 'paddle' shift, I'm struggling to find any info on this.
Is this a mechanical system?
Most I've seen tend to do away with the manual shift lever too.
1. So is this apurely mechanical system?
2. is it a push/pull for changing or is it a dual paddle (up on one side, down on the other)?
3. again, what about using the clutch etc?
Sorry for all the questions - want to make sure I get the one that's right for me.
Thanks in advance.
Chris
Still looking into whether I go CE or BE for the next purchase.
I quite like the idea of a BE with paddle/button shift (as close to being Lewis Hamilton as I'll ever get
)Have noticed a couple of different systems, can anyone enlighten me to the pros/cons etc of these systems?
I'm guessing that the 'button' type is mainly electronic (looking at the kliktronic website), and most of the cars with these retain the manual shif lever too.
There seems to be a fair bit of info available on this system but I still have a couple of questions.
1. Do you still need to use the clutch?
2. Presumably you need to make a slight lift of the throttle during up-changes, and blip on the down-change?
Now for the 'paddle' shift, I'm struggling to find any info on this.
Is this a mechanical system?
Most I've seen tend to do away with the manual shift lever too.
1. So is this apurely mechanical system?
2. is it a push/pull for changing or is it a dual paddle (up on one side, down on the other)?
3. again, what about using the clutch etc?
Sorry for all the questions - want to make sure I get the one that's right for me.
Thanks in advance.
Chris
Edited by Woody on Monday 8th August 12:57
To change up (and down)with a bike (dog)gearboxes it is only needed to unload the transmission at the same time as changing. So while accelerating you apply pressure to the lever and then momentarily lift the throttle. The timing takes a bit of practise and it's a lot easier when going hard to get it right. Downshift can be done clutch-less but the timing is far harder and most people don't bother.
Paddles are just (mostly) mechanical system. They're a rocker arrangement pivoted on the top of the column, so pull one side changes up, the other down. They operate the gear change via either a series of rods and pivots or a push/pull cable. Column levers are essentialy the same and it's down to personal choice, although different engines can make the arrangement easier to achieve for one over the other. Some have a sensor in the rod/cable that operates via a "Qickshift" or similar, to cut the ignition during up shifts to allow full throttle changes and some blip on down shifts.
Button systems use an actuator/solenoid to move the gearchange along with ingition cuts and throttle blips. A seperate lever is often retained as back-up and also for low speed/load changes where some actuator systems can be clunky.
Paddles are just (mostly) mechanical system. They're a rocker arrangement pivoted on the top of the column, so pull one side changes up, the other down. They operate the gear change via either a series of rods and pivots or a push/pull cable. Column levers are essentialy the same and it's down to personal choice, although different engines can make the arrangement easier to achieve for one over the other. Some have a sensor in the rod/cable that operates via a "Qickshift" or similar, to cut the ignition during up shifts to allow full throttle changes and some blip on down shifts.
Button systems use an actuator/solenoid to move the gearchange along with ingition cuts and throttle blips. A seperate lever is often retained as back-up and also for low speed/load changes where some actuator systems can be clunky.
I had a trick-shifter system fitted to my BEC. I opted to keep the lever though on cost grounds. IIRC a trick-shifter type system, i.e. the ECU, shift rod, and wiring harness, etc. costs around £350-500 off the shelf. The basic systems allow lift-less / clutchless upshifts, and the more expensive units (as I had) allow both lift-less upshifts and clutchless downshifts - they work off the vacuum in the throttle bodies to calculate the revs and use a small servo to blip the throttle via the idle control.
When I looked, it was quite a steep jump from this system to full on paddle shifts: £2-3k fitted, but some newer systems have brought the costs down a lot and you can now get them cheaper.
You will find lots of debate about which actuation methods is best - on this I don't know, but the more costly systems tend to use pneumatic actuators as it's deemed to be a 'softer' change and kinder mechanically.
There are also two main types of system - closed and open loop. The closed loop systems are again more expensive as they monitor whether the gear has changed rather than the: push button, energize actuator, of the open loop system.
I found there is a lot of b
ks talked by a lot of the different manufactures I spoke to, so my advice would be to go along to a series like the RGB where a few different systems are being run and ask for first hand feedback. That or ask if the company has a demo car you can drive.
TBH I would start with the ECU and shiftrod type system that maintains the lever to see whether you like it. They are needed for the full on padel shift anyway so you can upgrade at a later date.
When I looked, it was quite a steep jump from this system to full on paddle shifts: £2-3k fitted, but some newer systems have brought the costs down a lot and you can now get them cheaper.
You will find lots of debate about which actuation methods is best - on this I don't know, but the more costly systems tend to use pneumatic actuators as it's deemed to be a 'softer' change and kinder mechanically.
There are also two main types of system - closed and open loop. The closed loop systems are again more expensive as they monitor whether the gear has changed rather than the: push button, energize actuator, of the open loop system.
I found there is a lot of b
ks talked by a lot of the different manufactures I spoke to, so my advice would be to go along to a series like the RGB where a few different systems are being run and ask for first hand feedback. That or ask if the company has a demo car you can drive.TBH I would start with the ECU and shiftrod type system that maintains the lever to see whether you like it. They are needed for the full on padel shift anyway so you can upgrade at a later date.
In my experience of BEC's only 2 people I know have had broken gearboxes. The common denominator of both cars was they had push button powershift systems. Maybe just once every 200 shifts (?) it does not want to go in, my mechanical sympathy kicks in an I re-select it 1 second later. A powershift does not, it will just BANG! smash it in regardless. I am 99% sure it does the gearbox no good and I dont thik it is a coincidence they were the 2 cars I know of which broke. I personally would avoid them at all costs, but I am sure people will disagree with me.
A paddle shift is completely different, works the same as a regular tunnel mounted sequential shift stick but uses a manual mechanism behind the steering wheel, not electronic. You still have the option of backing out of the shift and mechanical sympathy . If you want a wheel type system, I would go down this route every time.
A paddle shift is completely different, works the same as a regular tunnel mounted sequential shift stick but uses a manual mechanism behind the steering wheel, not electronic. You still have the option of backing out of the shift and mechanical sympathy . If you want a wheel type system, I would go down this route every time.
Furyblade_Lee said:
In my experience of BEC's only 2 people I know have had broken gearboxes. The common denominator of both cars was they had push button powershift systems. Maybe just once every 200 shifts (?) it does not want to go in, my mechanical sympathy kicks in an I re-select it 1 second later. A powershift does not, it will just BANG! smash it in regardless. I am 99% sure it does the gearbox no good and I dont thik it is a coincidence they were the 2 cars I know of which broke. I personally would avoid them at all costs, but I am sure people will disagree with me.
A paddle shift is completely different, works the same as a regular tunnel mounted sequential shift stick but uses a manual mechanism behind the steering wheel, not electronic. You still have the option of backing out of the shift and mechanical sympathy . If you want a wheel type system, I would go down this route every time.
Mine broke - my fault, found a false neutral and it dropped into gear from 11k snapping off a couple of dogs. When it was opened up wear was found on three other gears. That was pre-quickshifter. A BEC box is going to break at some point, as they are simply not designed for the amount of stress they get from two fat 48R tyres. The most apt quote I ever read about BECs was in one of the KC mags which simply said treat the engine like a battery that runs out after somewhere between 10-20k milesA paddle shift is completely different, works the same as a regular tunnel mounted sequential shift stick but uses a manual mechanism behind the steering wheel, not electronic. You still have the option of backing out of the shift and mechanical sympathy . If you want a wheel type system, I would go down this route every time.
On a dog box a quick positive shift is better than a slower shift as you are less likely to go dog to dog. Your reference to banging it in depends on the system - as I said in my post above, a pneumatic system is a 'softer' change, and some of the closed loop systems can tell whether the car is in gear.
On any of the systems, you'll eventually kill the box.
Of course they will break eventually, as you say they are not designed to take these loads, but my R1 had survived 23,000 miles / 5 years of being driven like it has been stolen.
I am pretty sure the two powershift cars which failed did not last 10,000 miles.
Not scientific by any means, but an indicator for me absolutely.
But as stated, so what? If you get 2 / 3 years out of you box is does not matter if you chuck another engine and box in for £700, far cheaper than a routine anual rebuild on many engines. Just be aware of the risks and enjoy!
I am pretty sure the two powershift cars which failed did not last 10,000 miles.
Not scientific by any means, but an indicator for me absolutely.
But as stated, so what? If you get 2 / 3 years out of you box is does not matter if you chuck another engine and box in for £700, far cheaper than a routine anual rebuild on many engines. Just be aware of the risks and enjoy!
A properly developed and correctly calibrated "automatic shifting" system will minimise any wear on the transmission (including shock loads), hence things like WRC and Le Mans cars doing literally tens of thousands of gearshifts without failure.
But, i can count the number of aftermarket systems that are properly developed and correctly calibrated on the fingers of one thumb............ ;-)
But, i can count the number of aftermarket systems that are properly developed and correctly calibrated on the fingers of one thumb............ ;-)
Max_Torque said:
A properly developed and correctly calibrated "automatic shifting" system will minimise any wear on the transmission (including shock loads), hence things like WRC and Le Mans cars doing literally tens of thousands of gearshifts without failure.
But, i can count the number of aftermarket systems that are properly developed and correctly calibrated on the fingers of one thumb............ ;-)
Does it by any chance start with a G, end with an S and use an pneumatic ram? But, i can count the number of aftermarket systems that are properly developed and correctly calibrated on the fingers of one thumb............ ;-)
Great system, not cheap though.
Edited by PhillipM on Thursday 11th August 17:50
The Geartronics is certainly the best of the "aftermarket" systems availible, but you really need complete EMS control access to do it properly, and ideally a "torque based" EMS system in order to control engine speed and limit inertia loadings. The integrated BOSCH system is nice, but at over £15k just for the EMS, it damm well should be!
Just my advice for what it is worth.
I doubt you will want to use it for the daily grind so unless you have a roomy tunnel with space for your left foot to rest, make sure the clutch pedal is stiff as you can. I found it either off or on so whilst racing would inadvertantly engage the clutch with my foot resting on it.
The other thing is that I have seen guys change to paddle from the normal gearshift then go back again. Too many problems. I only used the normal gearshifter on the tunnel thingy and that was good fun although the digital dash couldnt keep up with what gear I was in so I often forgot. It wasnt my car though so Im sure you would get used to it.
It was an MNR Vortex and wonderful fun with an R1 engine.
I doubt you will want to use it for the daily grind so unless you have a roomy tunnel with space for your left foot to rest, make sure the clutch pedal is stiff as you can. I found it either off or on so whilst racing would inadvertantly engage the clutch with my foot resting on it.
The other thing is that I have seen guys change to paddle from the normal gearshift then go back again. Too many problems. I only used the normal gearshifter on the tunnel thingy and that was good fun although the digital dash couldnt keep up with what gear I was in so I often forgot. It wasnt my car though so Im sure you would get used to it.
It was an MNR Vortex and wonderful fun with an R1 engine.
rhinochopig said:
I found there is a lot of bks talked by a lot of the different manufactures I spoke to, so my advice would be to go along to a series like the RGB where a few different systems are being run and ask for first hand feedback. That or ask if the company has a demo car you can drive
No electronics allowed in RGB, have to stick to unassisted mechanical systems. Probably 80% of us use a paddle shift, most of those via a push-pull cable.ks talked by a lot of the different manufactures I spoke to, so my advice would be to go along to a series like the RGB where a few different systems are being run and ask for first hand feedback. That or ask if the company has a demo car you can drivehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ZqOn6yw-Q
^^^ is a link to a you tube video showing how the mechanical paddle shifter on my Skunk works.
^^^ is a link to a you tube video showing how the mechanical paddle shifter on my Skunk works.
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