Misrepresented Cars
Discussion
I'm surprised at how many people are willing to pay quite large amounts of money for classic cars without having them inspected.
Also how much they are prepared to tolerate when the car turns out to be not as described.
I appreciate that one would expect a marque specialist or "reputed" dealer to be reliable but unfortunately that's not always the case.
I've listed a few of my own experiences to start the discussion. They are Jaguar biased as that's my passion, but I'm sure all marques are equally represented.
An E-type roadster offered by a large and well established restoration company. The potential buyer arranged an independent inspection and it turned out to be a converted fixed head. No way the dealer didn't know this.
An XK150 roadster that I was offered. As above.
A Mk 2 3.8 Jaguar offered by another well known and well established company. Turns out to be a converted 2.4.
A fully restored (my favorite phrase) Mk 2 3.4 that looked beautiful and required £20k spending on it to put into decent condition.
A local MG specialist that has been in business for over 20 years and still turns out absolute rubbish.Strangely I haven't met anyone locally that has anything positive to say about him (including his employees) and yet he's still here.
A very large, no longer with us, E-type specialist that cut costs on every car and was a triumph of marketing over quality.
A long established "gentleman" dealer that manages to sell overdescribed cars, prepared to the minimum standard and yet maintains a sound reputation.
Another long established individual formerly of a well known Jaguar specialist and now fronting a new glossy company. Their cars are prepared to the absolute minimum standard but always look good.
I would say from my own experience that E-types are possibly one of the most abused restoration cases. Many of the very early cars have been butchered beyond belief, often by well known restorers using readily available (but incorrrect)panels during the restoration. The panel fit and door fit is often abysmal and they haven't been restored on a body jig to ensure alignement.
Also how much they are prepared to tolerate when the car turns out to be not as described.
I appreciate that one would expect a marque specialist or "reputed" dealer to be reliable but unfortunately that's not always the case.
I've listed a few of my own experiences to start the discussion. They are Jaguar biased as that's my passion, but I'm sure all marques are equally represented.
An E-type roadster offered by a large and well established restoration company. The potential buyer arranged an independent inspection and it turned out to be a converted fixed head. No way the dealer didn't know this.
An XK150 roadster that I was offered. As above.
A Mk 2 3.8 Jaguar offered by another well known and well established company. Turns out to be a converted 2.4.
A fully restored (my favorite phrase) Mk 2 3.4 that looked beautiful and required £20k spending on it to put into decent condition.
A local MG specialist that has been in business for over 20 years and still turns out absolute rubbish.Strangely I haven't met anyone locally that has anything positive to say about him (including his employees) and yet he's still here.
A very large, no longer with us, E-type specialist that cut costs on every car and was a triumph of marketing over quality.
A long established "gentleman" dealer that manages to sell overdescribed cars, prepared to the minimum standard and yet maintains a sound reputation.
Another long established individual formerly of a well known Jaguar specialist and now fronting a new glossy company. Their cars are prepared to the absolute minimum standard but always look good.
I would say from my own experience that E-types are possibly one of the most abused restoration cases. Many of the very early cars have been butchered beyond belief, often by well known restorers using readily available (but incorrrect)panels during the restoration. The panel fit and door fit is often abysmal and they haven't been restored on a body jig to ensure alignement.
Good thread, similar to the suggestion I put on http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... a couple of weeks ago. To take this further, and give a heads up to anyone looking to use a 'specialist', what do you think about a comment such as, 'went to XYZ motors to view XK150 roadster vrm ABC123, discovered that this had been a fixed head originally and therefore I did not buy it for the asking price of £x.
This would be a statement of fact, as would findings of other issues, rather than one persons damning condemnation of a particular dealer which would breach the naming and shaming rules. Likewise, it would be good to see the opposite, e.g.,'went to xyz motors to view a S3 E type V12 vrm ABC123, car was found to be as described, worth pretty much what was being asked' Done like that we would all be grateful for the info and we stay within the rules. Additionally, if someone has come along in the meantime and bought the fixed head conversion at the price of a genuine roadster, caveat emptor, as you rightly pointed out they should have had it properly inspected before purchase.
How do you feel about that?
EFA
This would be a statement of fact, as would findings of other issues, rather than one persons damning condemnation of a particular dealer which would breach the naming and shaming rules. Likewise, it would be good to see the opposite, e.g.,'went to xyz motors to view a S3 E type V12 vrm ABC123, car was found to be as described, worth pretty much what was being asked' Done like that we would all be grateful for the info and we stay within the rules. Additionally, if someone has come along in the meantime and bought the fixed head conversion at the price of a genuine roadster, caveat emptor, as you rightly pointed out they should have had it properly inspected before purchase.
How do you feel about that?
EFA
Edited by 2slo on Monday 15th August 08:58
Actually that was that thread that started me thinking along these lines.
It's a very contentious subject and there is always the chance that owners will equally misrepresent their dealings/opinions of a particular company resulting in unjustified criticism.
Also many owners simply don't have the knowledge to make an informed judgement. We are car owners and enthusiasts not necessarily car specialists.
I have limited my comments to personal experience. I could name companies that I know turn out substandard work and cut corners to save cost on sale cars as a matter of policy. It doesn't mean they have never sold a decent car.
I have seen endorsements for a certain Jaguar specialist that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole - on this very forum - so - buyer beware.
It's a very contentious subject and there is always the chance that owners will equally misrepresent their dealings/opinions of a particular company resulting in unjustified criticism.
Also many owners simply don't have the knowledge to make an informed judgement. We are car owners and enthusiasts not necessarily car specialists.
I have limited my comments to personal experience. I could name companies that I know turn out substandard work and cut corners to save cost on sale cars as a matter of policy. It doesn't mean they have never sold a decent car.
I have seen endorsements for a certain Jaguar specialist that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole - on this very forum - so - buyer beware.
mph said:
It's a very contentious subject and there is always the chance that owners will equally misrepresent their dealings/opinions of a particular company resulting in unjustified criticism.
I agree, hence my suggestion of only stating facts rather than opinion e.g. from your OP, the 'roadster' which was a fixed head originally. No opinion necessary in a comment such as that. Readers can draw their own conclusions.With all due respect, some people are just waiting to be fleeced. after all, it isn't hard to do a minimal amount of research to look up chassis numbers - or is it? I mean, 85 means a S1 RHD roadster, 86, RHD FHC, 87 LHD roadster and 88 LHD FHC. All the chassis series are available at the touch of a button on the internet.
But they still line up to be fleeced. I recognise some of the dealers from the description above, and the "gentleman dealer" was selling a C-type replica a while back "in superb condition". Turned out to be from a classic hire fleet and rubbish. I've seen gearboxes taken out by cutting off the tunnel and then, to remake the tunnel, cutting up a Castrol 50 gallon oil drum and welding in; I've seen monthly bills from a no longer with us restorer near Swindon which included, over the period of time 50lbs of filler. One ex-restorer from Bridport turned out an XK140 with so much lead in the boot lid that it was difficult to lift with both hands. I've seen cars that previously had been so badly damaged that the bulkhead was twisted and the car had a shorter wheelbase on one side to the other.
But, and I ask this time and time again, why do they continue to put their faith in a second hand car dealer? Surely, if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car? I mean, you don't buy a house without having it surveyed and your solicitor checking there isn't a motorway programmed to run through the middle, do you?
But they still, silent and acquiescent, still stand in line.
But they still line up to be fleeced. I recognise some of the dealers from the description above, and the "gentleman dealer" was selling a C-type replica a while back "in superb condition". Turned out to be from a classic hire fleet and rubbish. I've seen gearboxes taken out by cutting off the tunnel and then, to remake the tunnel, cutting up a Castrol 50 gallon oil drum and welding in; I've seen monthly bills from a no longer with us restorer near Swindon which included, over the period of time 50lbs of filler. One ex-restorer from Bridport turned out an XK140 with so much lead in the boot lid that it was difficult to lift with both hands. I've seen cars that previously had been so badly damaged that the bulkhead was twisted and the car had a shorter wheelbase on one side to the other.
But, and I ask this time and time again, why do they continue to put their faith in a second hand car dealer? Surely, if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car? I mean, you don't buy a house without having it surveyed and your solicitor checking there isn't a motorway programmed to run through the middle, do you?
But they still, silent and acquiescent, still stand in line.
lowdrag said:
Surely, if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car?
That goes without saying (or it does to me anyway) however I agree there are plenty of people who still just kick the tyres and part with their money. Two ways of looking at that. Firstly, you could argue on their own heads be it, alternatively, why not give others an idea of who is good to deal with and who isn't? I think more people would run classic cars if they were pointed in the right direction as to where (or where not)to buy from.
ETA: Reminds me that this topic formed part of the plot for for the excellent 1960 film School for scoundrels:
Edited by 2slo on Monday 15th August 12:08
slightly off title but very related
having myself been ripped off by "specialist expert" companies with their workmanship I like to privately warn others
I refer to their work as they don't sell cars and in these cases they are Triumph and Triumph/MG rip-off specialists
previously I've been caught out by a company that was highly recommended by members of a marque club and was also commended by that club's official organisation
last one that got me I checked by doing a bit of internet (yes I know but that's what we're doing now isn't it) and I called down to check the place out and some of their work with a knowledgeable friend - but I still got caught out
after I posted about my problems with these companies many shouted me down about the first company but a few contacted me and told me that they too had been ripped-off and with the second company there was more open agreement about their ethics
PM me if you want their names
to balance this let me say the workmanship I've got from JY Classics and Brown & Gammon has been very good
having myself been ripped off by "specialist expert" companies with their workmanship I like to privately warn others
I refer to their work as they don't sell cars and in these cases they are Triumph and Triumph/MG rip-off specialists
previously I've been caught out by a company that was highly recommended by members of a marque club and was also commended by that club's official organisation
last one that got me I checked by doing a bit of internet (yes I know but that's what we're doing now isn't it) and I called down to check the place out and some of their work with a knowledgeable friend - but I still got caught out
after I posted about my problems with these companies many shouted me down about the first company but a few contacted me and told me that they too had been ripped-off and with the second company there was more open agreement about their ethics
PM me if you want their names
to balance this let me say the workmanship I've got from JY Classics and Brown & Gammon has been very good
lowdrag said:
But, and I ask this time and time again, why do they continue to put their faith in a second hand car dealer? Surely, if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car? I mean, you don't buy a house without having it surveyed and your solicitor checking there isn't a motorway programmed to run through the middle, do you?
But they still, silent and acquiescent, still stand in line.
I agree with you up to a point, but I do sympathise with those who get caught out. But they still, silent and acquiescent, still stand in line.
It's not a totally unreasonable assumption to expect a long established classic car dealer or marque specialist to be trustworthy and reliable. Unfortunately it's not always the case.
A low point for me was when Coys went bust a few years back. The vendors lost their cars and their money and Coys were up and running and back in the glossies a few weeks later.
A jaguar centre located in surrey inspected my XJS way back in the mists of time.
They reported it was sound, perfect compression and just pointed out a cosmetic blemish or two and a windscreen chip.
A couple of weeks later I had replaced all the spark plugs and leads, finding the 2 under the a/c compressor seized in place and a number of split spark plug boots (love to know how they missed this on a compression test).
They also missed a leaking oil cooler, misfire, non functioning a/c and cruise control and that the rather poor condition of the radius arm mounts.
In fact, it was almost as if they hadnt done anything and just charged a rather large fee. A letter to them resulted in no response and as a student I had no money to mount a legal challenge.
I do my own inspections now and dont trust specialists to handle it whilst im at the other end of the country.
They reported it was sound, perfect compression and just pointed out a cosmetic blemish or two and a windscreen chip.
A couple of weeks later I had replaced all the spark plugs and leads, finding the 2 under the a/c compressor seized in place and a number of split spark plug boots (love to know how they missed this on a compression test).
They also missed a leaking oil cooler, misfire, non functioning a/c and cruise control and that the rather poor condition of the radius arm mounts.
In fact, it was almost as if they hadnt done anything and just charged a rather large fee. A letter to them resulted in no response and as a student I had no money to mount a legal challenge.
I do my own inspections now and dont trust specialists to handle it whilst im at the other end of the country.
Years ago, an 'inspector', from a company that heavily advertise their services, checked a car that I was selling and I later found out that he had reported back that it was dangerous as the folding seatbacks didn't lock (a 2+2 2-door FHC).
What he obviously didn't know, and didn't ask, was that they were locked by vacuum, so wouldn't lock until the engine was running. There was nothing wrong with it.
So, as with everything, not all inspectors are as good as some people think.
What he obviously didn't know, and didn't ask, was that they were locked by vacuum, so wouldn't lock until the engine was running. There was nothing wrong with it.
So, as with everything, not all inspectors are as good as some people think.
lowdrag said:
if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car? .
I agree but how do you know if the 'specialist' that you have engaged to do the pre-purchase inspection can be trusted to have the judgement required?Elderly said:
lowdrag said:
if you are in virgin territory looking to spend north of £50,000, it would make sense to have an expert look at the car? .
I agree but how do you know if the 'specialist' that you have engaged to do the pre-purchase inspection can be trusted to have the judgement required?I know people in both clubs who can be trusted to go through the car with a fine tooth comb and give an unbiased opinion. Of course they charge, but their fees are a damned sight less than not paying and ending up with a pup.
When I sold one of my cars I was very suprised at how little was checked by the marque expert inspector, admittedly I had compiled three folders of repairs and general history and probably spend more in one year on my cars that some do in 5 but I'm not sure it was worth even the half price that was charged to the purchaser
I sold my first very good but not concours Spridget at auction with again at least two files ans some spares in the boot a dealer bought it and immediately passed it as he also bought a later car and couldn't drive the two
what I didn't know was that it was passed on to what probably a second dealer (Lord ! somebody or other I think) when I saw the car again 2 years later on the MASC stand at the NEC it appeared that the spare didn't make it to the next owner and the bills history files were reduced to just one file (perhaps as there was so much it was shared with another Spridget?)
I know next to nothing about cars but I went to look at a top price Rover P6 from an occasional (very wealthy) dealer, dealing with his man not him of course, when I lifted out the rear seats and looked under the boot carpet the car had holes in it despite its respray - the chap asked whether I'd buy it at a lower price if they done a limited cost of repairs as they were unaware of the common rust points and hadn't checked despite spending a lot of money on what could have been a very nice car, when I said no he asked for a figure I would buy at as obviously they wanted shot of the car and the money lost would mean little to the owner
he also told me that they just passed on an E-type Jag as a forced addition to the sale of another two cars to a classic car hirer and that this E-Type was going as it wasn't that good
I live next door to a life long car salesman and you can see and hear the smooth con-man in him
a mate who used to work for a classic car dealer in the 80s that sold everything from "genuine" Mini Cooper steering wheels to Japan to Ferraris and E-types to customers for hieght of the boom prices and the stories he's told me confirm the stereotype about these places
high value Jags will have experts available humble stuff like MG?triumph will be a lot less so
I sold my first very good but not concours Spridget at auction with again at least two files ans some spares in the boot a dealer bought it and immediately passed it as he also bought a later car and couldn't drive the two
what I didn't know was that it was passed on to what probably a second dealer (Lord ! somebody or other I think) when I saw the car again 2 years later on the MASC stand at the NEC it appeared that the spare didn't make it to the next owner and the bills history files were reduced to just one file (perhaps as there was so much it was shared with another Spridget?)
I know next to nothing about cars but I went to look at a top price Rover P6 from an occasional (very wealthy) dealer, dealing with his man not him of course, when I lifted out the rear seats and looked under the boot carpet the car had holes in it despite its respray - the chap asked whether I'd buy it at a lower price if they done a limited cost of repairs as they were unaware of the common rust points and hadn't checked despite spending a lot of money on what could have been a very nice car, when I said no he asked for a figure I would buy at as obviously they wanted shot of the car and the money lost would mean little to the owner
he also told me that they just passed on an E-type Jag as a forced addition to the sale of another two cars to a classic car hirer and that this E-Type was going as it wasn't that good
I live next door to a life long car salesman and you can see and hear the smooth con-man in him
a mate who used to work for a classic car dealer in the 80s that sold everything from "genuine" Mini Cooper steering wheels to Japan to Ferraris and E-types to customers for hieght of the boom prices and the stories he's told me confirm the stereotype about these places
high value Jags will have experts available humble stuff like MG?triumph will be a lot less so
na said:
high value Jags will have experts available humble stuff like MG?triumph will be a lot less so
There are no doubt experts available to check virtually any make of car, the valuation to value of car ratio though, will mean that cars such as Aston Martin DB4/5/6s advertised at possibly £100k plus, will always (one would assume) be given a full expert appraisal (they would if I were buying)prior to purchase, whereas the Triumph or MG advertised for a couple of thousand is less likely to be expertly assessed.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff