BMW customer service!!

[griff7]

Mate of mine has a set of the bbs alloy's as fitted to the gts and bought from bmw, and when cleaning the car found that one of the spokes had cracked all the way through.The wheel has not been curbed or marked in any way.He rang bmw and the warranty guy said could you please drive the 30 mile round trip so that we can inspect the wheel!!he had already sent professionel quality photo's of the wheel by email which clearly showed the break.
He then asked if they would put in writing that if the wheel broke on the way that they would cover any insurance claim that might arise and they thought that was unreasonable as they had not thought of that.
When he ordered the wheels they were only available in silver probably to stop people copying the gts so he had them professionally sprayed black.The warranty guy has said that because he has done this that he will have to pay for the wheel??Now im no rocket scientist but wheels are painted and laquered all the time with no problems and these are meant to be a high quality motorsport wheels.
I have 2 sets of m3 wheels powdercoated black and a set of ats motorsport wheels in black and a set of copy m3 wheels to run winter tyres on in black and have had no problems whatever.
The guy has had a new 1m from them an e92m3 and an x5 and still owns them all and has them serviced at this dealership.

thoughts please.

[Zod]

Could he not have put the wheel in the X5 or the 1M to drive to see them?

[griff7]

Zod said:

Could he not have put the wheel in the X5 or the 1M to drive to see them?

I suppose so and just leave the m3 jacked up outside on the drive? its a bmw not a fiesta so to have the car collected should not have expected too much and to be fair even if it was a fiesta with the same problem i would have expected that.

[darreni]

BMW may argue that the wheel had been damaged & the refurb is hiding a repair.

I would not expect much joy from BMW given the wheels are no longer in the same condition as when new.

[M3Charlie]

As far as BMW will be concerned the wheel has been 'modified' from standard specification and will therefore not be covered under warranty. BMW would also not be responsible for one of there employees driving your car with a damaged wheel rim and therefore would not collect the car and would expect you to get the wheel to them. Unfortunatley I think you will have to pay for the wheel.

[griff7]

M3Charlie said:

As far as BMW will be concerned the wheel has been 'modified' from standard specification and will therefore not be covered under warranty. BMW would also not be responsible for one of there employees driving your car with a damaged wheel rim and therefore would not collect the car and would expect you to get the wheel to them. Unfortunatley I think you will have to pay for the wheel.

I did say to him about the painting when he first told me what happened.The gts wheel is painted black as standard so that is like saying that no one else is capable of spraying wheels and judging by the quality of paint on the later generation bm's thats a joke.

My friend was not expecting anyone to drive the car or did not demand that it was collected but thought the offer would have been appreciated.When i have had problems with my cars bmw have collected them on a low loader if there was any chance of further damage by driving the car.

[PJ S]

Your friend could/should argue the change of colour is purely cosmetic and in no way absolves BMW from possibly manufacturing defective wheels.
You mention E92 - if these are the 19" wheels I'm thinking of, then they were covered on Watchdog, and BMW said they weren't covering them as it's due to potholes that cause them to fracture.

He'd need to involve a professional expert (eg Team Dynamics?) or NDT specialist to x-ray or dye penetration, if he wanted to prove the wheel was structural weak through design/manufacture.

[griff7]

PJ S said:

Your friend could/should argue the change of colour is purely cosmetic and in no way absolves BMW from possibly manufacturing defective wheels.
You mention E92 - if these are the 19" wheels I'm thinking of, then they were covered on Watchdog, and BMW said they weren't covering them as it's due to potholes that cause them to fracture.

He'd need to involve a professional expert (eg Team Dynamics?) or NDT specialist to x-ray or dye penetration, if he wanted to prove the wheel was structural weak through design/manufacture.

Bmw has now reversed its decision and started to compensate owners for the damaged wheels as from jan 2010 as reported in whatcar.This wheel is a bbs alloy made for bmw for the gts and does not use the run flat tyres and the crack is on an inner spoke and not near the rim so it really looks defective.As you say paint is only cosmetic and bbs have a good reputation for motorsport wheels.

[Mermaid]

Call the AA/RAC and ask them to tow the car to BMW.

[M3Charlie]

If the car is undrivable and is still under warranty then the BMW emergency service will recover the car to a dealer for you.

[griff7]

PJ S said:

Your friend could/should argue the change of colour is purely cosmetic and in no way absolves BMW from possibly manufacturing defective wheels.
You mention E92 - if these are the 19" wheels I'm thinking of, then they were covered on Watchdog, and BMW said they weren't covering them as it's due to potholes that cause them to fracture.

He'd need to involve a professional expert (eg Team Dynamics?) or NDT specialist to x-ray or dye penetration, if he wanted to prove the wheel was structural weak through design/manufacture.

Bmw has now reversed its decision and started to compensate owners for the damaged wheels as from jan 2010 as reported in whatcar.This wheel is a bbs alloy made for bmw for the gts and does not use the run flat tyres and the crack is on an inner spoke and not near the rim so it really looks defective.As you say paint is only cosmetic and bbs have a good reputation for motorsport wheels.

[4rephill]

griff7 said:

Mate of mine has a set of the bbs alloy's as fitted to the gts and bought from bmw, and when cleaning the car found that one of the spokes had cracked all the way through.The wheel has not been curbed or marked in any way.He rang bmw and the warranty guy said could you please drive the 30 mile round trip so that we can inspect the wheel!!he had already sent professionel quality photo's of the wheel by email which clearly showed the break.

BMW are never in a million years going to assess a warranty claim based on photographs alone, no matter how "professional the pictures are.

I also suspect the warranty guy actually said that your mate would need to bring the wheel in to them so that they could inspect it, which is not the same thing as saying he would have drive the car on the damaged rim (If only he had a mate who could have helped him out by giving him a lift to the dealership with the wheel! ).

griff7 said:

He then asked if they would put in writing that if the wheel broke on the way that they would cover any insurance claim that might arise and they thought that was unreasonable as they had not thought of that.

Never going to happen as it would be the owners decision to drive the car on the damaged rim. All BMW would say is that they asked for the wheel to be brought to them for inspection, they did not demand that it remained on the car and was driven in.

griff7 said:

When he ordered the wheels they were only available in silver probably to stop people copying the gts so he had them professionally sprayed black.The warranty guy has said that because he has done this that he will have to pay for the wheel??Now im no rocket scientist but wheels are painted and laquered all the time with no problems and these are meant to be a high quality motorsport wheels.

But to the strict letter of the law when it comes to BMW's warranty, they will stipulate that in order for the warranty to remain valid, no part of the vehicle should be modified without BMW's approval first and so by having the wheels painted without asking BMW, your friend has invalidated the warranty on them. This is because the wheels have been altered (even if it is only the colour), and BMW cannot, and will not guarantee an unknown third parties work (how do they know that the people who repainted the wheel, didn't drop or damage it at some stage and then repaired and painted over the damage?).


In My business I do warranty inspections every single day and with our company, if the customer even removes or disturbs a single bolt on the item they have bought, We have the right to declare the warranty null and void! (they can request that an authorised service engineer looks at the problem but even he is very limited in what he is allowed to do. We usually demand that the item is returned, untouched so that we carry out a full examination of the alleged fault). We don't hide this fact, we openly point it out to customers and it is part of the sales contract they sign (and it's the same sort of deal that your mate signed with BMW in order to maintain the warranty).



There's a valuable lesson to be learned here and it's not rocket science: if you don't want to lose the warranty on your car, don't do any unauthorised modifications to it during the warranty period (no matter how small the modification may seem), because that gives the manufacturer the automatic right to declare the warranty null and void.

[griff7]

4rephill said:

But to the strict letter of the law when it comes to BMW's warranty, they will stipulate that in order for the warranty to remain valid, no part of the vehicle should be modified without BMW's approval first and so by having the wheels painted without asking BMW, your friend has invalidated the warranty on them. This is because the wheels have been altered (even if it is only the colour), and BMW cannot, and will not guarantee an unknown third parties work (how do they know that the people who repainted the wheel, didn't drop or damage it at some stage and then repaired and painted over the damage?).


In My business I do warranty inspections every single day and with our company, if the customer even removes or disturbs a single bolt on the item they have bought, We have the right to declare the warranty null and void! (they can request that an authorised service engineer looks at the problem but even he is very limited in what he is allowed to do. We usually demand that the item is returned, untouched so that we carry out a full examination of the alleged fault). We don't hide this fact, we openly point it out to customers and it is part of the sales contract they sign (and it's the same sort of deal that your mate signed with BMW in order to maintain the warranty).



There's a valuable lesson to be learned here and it's not rocket science: if you don't want to lose the warranty on your car, don't do any unauthorised modifications to it during the warranty period (no matter how small the modification may seem), because that gives the manufacturer the automatic right to declare the warranty null and void.

One of the main reasons for the post was that the warranty guy did ask him to drive the car to the dealership!!

As far as warranty companies and aftermarket policies go the general concensus from talking to people is that they are not worth the paper they are written on.The bmw ones however are very comprehensive but even they have been proved wrong on the wheels before ie watchdog and whatcar made them do a u turn on their decision before.
One of the guys who was made to pay for 3 new wheels after they cracked sent them to MIRA to be tested 2 of the wheels were found to not be fit for purpose and another one that bmw had said needed to be changed was found to be faultless!! The guy was awarded over 7k in compensation all because he challenged the warranty company and stood up for what he thought was right.
In a court of law they also have to prove that a coat of paint would have this effect and as stated before these wheels also come painted.

Another example was on the E61 m5 when a clutch judder problem was found to be a recurring and bmw said it was just a straight forward replacement due to wear ecain 63 did not agree and after a lot of time and effort proved that the cluth release bearing had not been greased properly from the factory which has resulted in bmw now accepting claims.so cases are not always black and white if people dont just sit down and take the opinion of a warranty company.

[darreni]

griff7 said:

4rephill said:

In a court of law they also have to prove that a coat of paint would have this effect and as stated before these wheels also come painted.

You don't get it do you?.

The fact that the wheels have been modified invalidates the warranty. As per the warranty T&C's. BMW do not have to prove anything. At all.

[griff7]

darreni said:

You don't get it do you?.

The fact that the wheels have been modified invalidates the warranty. As per the warranty T&C's. BMW do not have to prove anything. At all.

Yes i do get it and that is why i asked for peoples thoughts on this situation and it is interesting to read different views.If a customer has the wheel inspected and it is proved that the paint did not cause the break then i think they should take responsibility.
Again just points of view in reply of opinions posted.

[PJ S]

darreni said:

griff7 said:

In a court of law they also have to prove that a coat of paint would have this effect and as stated before these wheels also come painted.

You don't get it do you?.

The fact that the wheels have been modified invalidates the warranty. As per the warranty T&C's, BMW do not have to prove anything at all.

Not strictly true - if you repainted your car, or even wrapped it, you'd have expectations that the warranty remains intact.
That the wheels are the issue themselves, not the engine/electronics/transmission, muddys the water a bit trying to use the above scenario, but does not get away from the fact they may have had a manufactured defect.
Skimming the wheels, engraving them, doing something that could change them from an engineering pov, would be considered a direct consequence modification - but simply changing the colour can be argued as immaterial and a convenient get-out for the manufacturer.
I'm sure manufacturers could write using any tyre but the one they recommend invalidates the warranty - do you believe a court would accept the terms of the warranty are legally binding?

[darreni]

PJ S said:

darreni said:

griff7 said:

In a court of law they also have to prove that a coat of paint would have this effect and as stated before these wheels also come painted.

You don't get it do you?.

The fact that the wheels have been modified invalidates the warranty. As per the warranty T&C's, BMW do not have to prove anything at all.

Not strictly true - if you repainted your car, or even wrapped it, you'd have expectations that the warranty remains intact.
That the wheels are the issue themselves, not the engine/electronics/transmission, muddys the water a bit trying to use the above scenario, but does not get away from the fact they may have had a manufactured defect.
Skimming the wheels, engraving them, doing something that could change them from an engineering pov, would be considered a direct consequence modification - but simply changing the colour can be argued as immaterial and a convenient get-out for the manufacturer.
I'm sure manufacturers could write using any tyre but the one they recommend invalidates the warranty - do you believe a court would accept the terms of the warranty are legally binding?

I agree, the wheel may have had a manufacturing defect & if left in its original state, BMW would have, i'm sure, entertained an inspection & possible warranty claim.
The T&C's state that modification voids the warranty. You pays yer money etc...

Re the painting of bodywork, i agree that having the wing repainted should not affect the mechanical warranty on the car, but when i've had paint on a car in the past, it had to go to a BMW/Audi/ Merc etc approved bodyshop to ensure the bodywork/corrosion warranty remained intact.

[4rephill]

PJ S said:

Not strictly true - if you repainted your car, or even wrapped it, you'd have expectations that the warranty remains intact....

It's not necessarily the case that the entire warranty on would automatically be declared null and void, BMW may simply take the stance that there is no warranty on the modified part alone (in this case, the wheels). All of the parts of the car that are not modified would most likely remain under warranty. However, they may also have a clause that stipulates that any unauthorised modification to the car invalidates the whole warranty.

Now lets look at the two examples that you have given:

1) If you repainted your car, do you think the BMW paint warranty would still be valid?, I highly doubt it somehow but the rest of the warranty would most likely remain in place.

2) If you wrapped your car and the original paintwork underneath was damaged in some way, do you think BMW would rectify the paint work free of charge as a warranty claim?. Not going to happen!, again the paint warranty would be declared void.

griff7 said:

In a court of law they also have to prove that a coat of paint would have this effect and as stated before these wheels also come painted.

In a court of law, all BMW have to do is show that an unauthorised third party has painted the wheels which breaks the terms of the warranty contract.
The coat of paint is not the main issue, what BMW will simply say is that they cannot guarantee how an unauthorised third party company may have handled the wheels or processed them and that they do not warrant a third parties work when it is unauthorised.




At the end of the day, when your mate bought the car he signed a contract which included the warranty agreement. Written into that agreement will be a statement saying something along the lines of:

Should any part of the car be modified, changed or altered in anyway without authorisation or agreement from BMW, then the warranty on that part will become null and void! (it may even stipulate that the entire warranty is null and void).

Your mate agreed to these terms and then altered a part on the car without consulting BMW. This straight away, is a breach of the warranty agreement and so BMW are within their rights to cancel the warranty on the wheels.

Like it or not, that's the way manufacturers warranties work, if you alter any part of the item then the manufacturer is no longer responsible for it!. The reason other people have had wheels replaced by BMW free of charge is because their wheels were unaltered from when they left the factory and so the owners were not in breach of their warranty agreement.

[PJ S]

4rephill said:

PJ S said:

Not strictly true - if you repainted your car, or even wrapped it, you'd have expectations that the warranty remains intact....

1) If you repainted your car, do you think the BMW paint warranty would still be valid?, I highly doubt it somehow but the rest of the warranty would most likely remain in place.

2) If you wrapped your car and the original paintwork underneath was damaged in some way, do you think BMW would rectify the paint work free of charge as a warranty claim?. Not going to happen!, again the paint warranty would be declared void.

1) That's oxymoronic. Why, or more importantly how, would you invoke maunfacturer's paint warranty?
That's like saying the OP's friend is trying to get BMW to cough up for paint bubbling.
In case you've not been keeping score, it's a cracked spoke - which is a very different kettle of fish.

2) As reply above. The wrap/clear protection film would only damage paintwork if removed carelessly. Most aren't that sticky, but care in removing is advised anyway.
Same principle applies - warranty of the rest of the car (which was my main point) remains, and so would the anti-corrosion warranty.
Dealers might like to think they've got you in that scenario, but if the corrosion was inside out, then changing colour or protecting the paintwork won't change that fact.
Of course, depends on how hard you're prepared to fight against them/the manufacturer using any excuse to get out of having to pay.

[4rephill]

PJ S said:

1) That's oxymoronic. Why, or more importantly how, would you invoke maunfacturer's paint warranty?
That's like saying the OP's friend is trying to get BMW to cough up for paint bubbling.
In case you've not been keeping score, it's a cracked spoke - which is a very different kettle of fish.

2) As reply above. The wrap/clear protection film would only damage paintwork if removed carelessly. Most aren't that sticky, but care in removing is advised anyway.
Same principle applies - warranty of the rest of the car (which was my main point) remains, and so would the anti-corrosion warranty.
Dealers might like to think they've got you in that scenario, but if the corrosion was inside out, then changing colour or protecting the paintwork won't change that fact.
Of course, depends on how hard you're prepared to fight against them/the manufacturer using any excuse to get out of having to pay.

Okay, here's how BMW's warranty works (and it's the same for every other manufacturer as well):

When BMW build a car, they guarantee the quality of the parts they used and the quality of the work they performed to build the car, for a set period of time on the proviso that the car is serviced correctly and none of the parts are modified or replaced with parts of an inferior quality.

When you buy a BMW you sign an agreement saying that you accept the terms of the warranty and understand that any breach of the terms can invalidate the warranty.

In the old days the manufacturers could demand that you had to have your car serviced by their official Dealerships only in order to maintain the warranty.

The law has since been changed and you can have your car serviced where you like and maintain the warranty - providing it is serviced in accordance with BMW's schedule and only original BMW parts are used. This means that if your mechanic uses a pattern part oil filter, air filter or whatever, then the warranty is invalidated. Also, if any damage occurs due to the workmanship of your mechanic, BMW cannot be held liable.

Now to answer your questions:

PJ S said:

1) That's oxymoronic. Why, or more importantly how, would you invoke maunfacturer's paint warranty?

You can invoke the manufacturers paint warranty if the paint work on the car as delivered is sub-standard. This could be along the lines of different shades on different panels, paint thickness that is too thin and not to the factories specification, paint lifting due to poor adherence to the panels, runs in the paint work etc., etc.

PJ S said:

That's like saying the OP's friend is trying to get BMW to cough up for paint bubbling.
In case you've not been keeping score, it's a cracked spoke - which is a very different kettle of fish.

I have no problem with "keeping score".
No the OP's friend is not trying to get BMW to cough up for paint bubbling. The OP's friend is getting upset because BMW will not ignore the fact that he broke the terms of his warranty agreement (see the first part in bold above), and wants them to pay for a wheel that has been worked on by an outside third party. How are BMW supposed to know that the wheel company did not drop or damage the wheel during their work on it?. Had the OP's friend had BMW paint the wheels then there would be no problem, but he didn't and so BMW no longer have any legal responsibility for the wheels under the terms of the warranty agreement, it really isn't rocket science!.

PJ S said:

2) As reply above. The wrap/clear protection film would only damage paintwork if removed carelessly. Most aren't that sticky, but care in removing is advised anyway.

And as I have said previously, should any damage occur to the paintwork due to a wraps removal, BMW would not entertain a warranty claim against the paintwork quality. Why?, because the original paint warranty will stipulate that it only covers issues caused by the factories paint process and not anything that may have been done to the paintwork either directly or indirectly, which includes wraps. Try claiming a warranty against the paint work for stone chips and see how far you get.

PJ S said:

Same principle applies - warranty of the rest of the car (which was my main point) remains, and so would the anti-corrosion warranty.
Dealers might like to think they've got you in that scenario, but if the corrosion was inside out, then changing colour or protecting the paintwork won't change that fact.

I have already said that the warranty on the rest of the car would remain (although in extreme cases BMW may have the right to invalidate the whole warranty). Your second part is talking about the anti-corrosion part of the warranty, not the paintwork warranty, they're two separate things. I was talking purely about the paintwork warranty.

PJ S said:

Of course, depends on how hard you're prepared to fight against them/the manufacturer using any excuse to get out of having to pay.

The OP's mate could try and fight all he likes but the one inescapable fact is that he broke the terms of the warranty when it came to his wheels and therefore BMW has the right to declare that part of the warranty null and void. In this instance, the law is on BMW's side based on the agreement freely signed and agreed to by the OP's mate.




Here's some more easy ways of losing your warranty by using third party companies to modify your car without asking BMW first:

1) Have the engine re-mapped. Result: Should BMW find it (not that hard as the original factory setting will have been altered), Engine warranty invalidated.
2) Have the suspension modified from standard. Result: suspension warranty invalidated.
3) Have the brake modified from standard. Result: Brake warranty invalidated.
4) Have the bodywork repainted. Result: paint warranty invalidated

ETC., etc,.

I will repeat for one last time: If you don't want to risk losing your warranty (or parts of it), don't modify your car unless BMW do it for you!