When is a dual carriageway not a dual carriageway?
Discussion
Just received a NIP through for the A66 in Cumbria.
Know the spot saw the van and am sure I was bang on 70 on this section of dual carriageway.
Confused I looked at the Cumbria SCP site to find that they give it a specific mention!
to quote - 'A66 Speed Limit Notice
19/08/2003Please note that the A66 eastbound between Threlkeld and Troutbeck is a 60mph limit. The twin lane overtaking section is not an official dual carriageway and does not have a 70mph speed limit'
OK so in that case why does it have an official big blue sign announcing 'dual carriageway’?
Or even more pertinent no nice round sign saying 60mph!
Worse still they must know this is confusing for drivers – why else add the comment to the web site and why else park a van there – unless they know its a good way to raise cash and dont want to kill the cash cow!
Feeling very very ripped off - even when you try to stick to the limits you get stung.
Any one with more experience of this - I feel I want to contest it but need my licence and sure any argument will count for nothing.
I’m up later in the week and will get some photos – if anyone thinks its worth while.
Know the spot saw the van and am sure I was bang on 70 on this section of dual carriageway.
Confused I looked at the Cumbria SCP site to find that they give it a specific mention!
to quote - 'A66 Speed Limit Notice
19/08/2003Please note that the A66 eastbound between Threlkeld and Troutbeck is a 60mph limit. The twin lane overtaking section is not an official dual carriageway and does not have a 70mph speed limit'
OK so in that case why does it have an official big blue sign announcing 'dual carriageway’?
Or even more pertinent no nice round sign saying 60mph!
Worse still they must know this is confusing for drivers – why else add the comment to the web site and why else park a van there – unless they know its a good way to raise cash and dont want to kill the cash cow!
Feeling very very ripped off - even when you try to stick to the limits you get stung.
Any one with more experience of this - I feel I want to contest it but need my licence and sure any argument will count for nothing.
I’m up later in the week and will get some photos – if anyone thinks its worth while.
Gfun said:
Just received a NIP through for the A66 in Cumbria.
Know the spot saw the van and am sure I was bang on 70 on this section of dual carriageway.
Confused I looked at the Cumbria SCP site to find that they give it a specific mention!
to quote - 'A66 Speed Limit Notice
19/08/2003Please note that the A66 eastbound between Threlkeld and Troutbeck is a 60mph limit. The twin lane overtaking section is not an official dual carriageway and does not have a 70mph speed limit'
OK so in that case why does it have an official big blue sign announcing 'dual carriageway’?
Sorry, but I know this section fairly well. The official dual carriageway ends at about Keswick and the 2 lane uphill section before Troutbeck is technically single carriageway. Of course many, many people think it's dual carriageway merely because its as big and wide as a d/c, which is presumably why they frequently deploy their cameras there.
Some would say that this is merely cynical cash collection, but that's unfair, but the camera partnership will assure us it's about educating drivers into slowing down. Presumably they regard it as a sort of roadside test of your highway code knowledge, with a £60 fine and 3 points for every incorrect answer!
Gfun said:
Or even more pertinent no nice round sign saying 60mph!
Of course the ready made excuse here is that the signage is the last NSL sign you passed, which is of course technically correct but not very helpful. A bit like the favourite scam of reducing a 40 limit to 30 merely by removing all the repeater signs and then zapping people for doing 30-40mph simply because they failed to draw the correct conclusion from the street light spacing.
Gfun said:
Worse still they must know this is confusing for drivers – why else add the comment to the web site and why else park a van there – unless they know its a good way to raise cash and dont want to kill the cash cow!
Why indeed? Perhaps it's so they can blame you for not doing your research. Of course everyone that uses the A66 has already visited their website and read all the details carefully, so there's just no excuse is there?
Gfun said:
Feeling very very ripped off - even when you try to stick to the limits you get stung.
I full sympathise with that point of view. I've been done twice now in similar circumstances.
It is very, very difficult not to be cynical.
Gfun said:
Any one with more experience of this - I feel I want to contest it but need my licence and sure any argument will count for nothing.
I’m up later in the week and will get some photos – if anyone thinks its worth while.
Sadly not, as I don't think you will find that there actually is a "dual carriageway" sign there. It is just a classic "speed trap" in the truest sense of the word.
If you really do want to contest it I'd suggest a visit to Pepipoo, but as far as the legality of the limit is concerned I think you'll find you are on a hiding to nothing.
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Monday 7th June 20:13
BlackStuff said:
Sadly not, as I don't think you will find that there actually is a "dual carriageway" sign there. It is just a classic "speed trap" in the truest sense of the word.
You will find that the accident statistics and the number of speeding vehicles have led to the camera being placed there and no other reason.
Since the camera has been there there has been a dramatic absense of KSI collisions. Which is nice.
BlackStuff said:
Sadly not, as I don't think you will find that there actually is a "dual carriageway" sign there. It is just a classic "speed trap" in the truest sense of the word.
You will find that the accident statistics and the number of speeding vehicles have led to the camera being placed there and no other reason.
Since the camera has been there there has been a dramatic absense of KSI collisions. Which is nice.
SteveCallaghan said:
We have tried to have posters put up in place of signs to make this clearer to all but there are no signs other than the NSL that are allowed to signify the speed limit at that location.
An NSL sign and no central reservation = 60mph for Cars and M/Cs.
interesting - i wasnt aware of this - i thought a dc was a dc no matter what and that the limit is 70 regardless. perhaps because locally all my dcs have reservations? whichever, this is useful information. i must add tho, that it must be gutting to get a ticket for such an offence.
SteveCallaghan said:
We have tried to have posters put up in place of signs to make this clearer to all but there are no signs other than the NSL that are allowed to signify the speed limit at that location.
An NSL sign and no central reservation = 60mph for Cars and M/Cs.
Liebchen - My husband has already to told you to spell it out - simply place a
lollipop stating 60mph. |Manchester (who have been given Chief Con Todd's very very sensible legacy) have such signs on their roads )or at least the ones I have driven on tehre. My sister-in-law is highly critical of one Truvleo placed on road with no accidents (she lives on same road - can see it from her front room) as this contraption - hnece she knows!). But this is a Prat one - think that alone speaks volumes and tells us all we need to know about your true motives! 
paolow said:
We have tried to have posters put up in place of signs to make this clearer to all but there are no signs other than the NSL that are allowed to signify the speed limit at that location.
An NSL sign and no central reservation = 60mph for Cars and M/Cs.
interesting - i wasnt aware of this - i thought a dc was a dc no matter what and that the limit is 70 regardless. perhaps because locally all my dcs have reservations? whichever, this is useful information. i must add tho, that it must be gutting to get a ticket for such an offence.
Interesting also is that this type of road is called a "twin lane, single carriageway" just in case you weren't confused enough.
Be careful when driving vehicles other than cars and motorcycles as their speed limits are not 70mph, hence the NSL sign being employed to indicate different limits apply.
SteveCallaghan said:
SteveCallaghan said:
We have tried to have posters put up in place of signs to make this clearer to all but there are no signs other than the NSL that are allowed to signify the speed limit at that location.
An NSL sign and no central reservation = 60mph for Cars and M/Cs.
interesting - i wasnt aware of this - i thought a dc was a dc no matter what and that the limit is 70 regardless. perhaps because locally all my dcs have reservations? whichever, this is useful information. i must add tho, that it must be gutting to get a ticket for such an offence.
Interesting also is that this type of road is called a "twin lane, single carriageway" just in case you weren't confused enough.
Be careful when driving vehicles other than cars and motorcycles as their speed limits are not 70mph, hence the NSL sign being employed to indicate different limits apply.
And like my husband said to you - bit of road engineering and 60mph lollipop and reminder 50/40 sign for caravanners etc would be preferable and cheaper to erect than scam. Bit of paint on road HGVs only - per Todd's Manchester in parts. (Note I say Todd's Manchester - because the common sense legacy that still exists there is down to him and his trafpols and NOT the lovely Emma R - she is destroying it in stages and alienating the Mancunians as we speak!) That alone speaks volumes!
SteveCallaghan said:
And like my husband said to you - bit of road engineering and 60mph lollipop and reminder 50/40 sign for caravanners etc would be preferable and cheaper to erect than scam. Bit of paint on road HGVs only -
Nice idea. Signing regs prevent I'm afraid.
Looks like the regs need to change then
I always thought the "dual" in dual carriageway meant that there were two seperated roads in each direction - ie. there is a central reservation. Dual Carriageways can have any number of lanes in either direction, from one upwards. This also explains why a four lane road with no central reservation is called a single carriageway.
forever_driving said:
Looks like the regs need to change then.
Well, no.
One of the reasons for the regulations is consistency across the country. We cannot have every jumped up thick councillor deciding what signs will be erected in his area.
If there are 'reminder' signs in one area, but such signs are not present in another, a driver moving from area 1 to area 2 would reasonably assume that the absence of the 'reminder' sign meant that there was no restriction.
That is the reason for the prohibition of 30MPH repeaters where there are street lights. If you put them up in some places, you need to put them up everywhere. Imagine the sheer volume of signs that would require.
SteveCallaghan said:You mean that in the officer's shift there have been fewer accidents? If it's that bad surely there should be a fixed camera as there is elsewhere.
You will find that the accident statistics and the number of speeding vehicles have led to the camera being placed there and no other reason.
Since the camera has been there there has been a dramatic absense of KSI collisions. Which is nice.
Ooops! Silly me, people would get to know that its there and not get their £60 fine!
And, by the way, we know about the disappearing "seriously injured" statistics.
Perhaps everyone has taken on board the mantra "speed kills". So why doesn't that follow in the rest of the region? Perhaps the road without a fixed camera position is producing the best reduction in KSI's, wouldn't that tell you something?
Perhaps it's time to face up to the fact that the best people to set the safe speed for a road are the drivers that use it rather than a bunch of chauffeur-driven beaurocrats. And the best people to police it are (surprise, surprise) people who are the best trained drivers in the country (if not the world). I suspect they spot dangerous driving when they see it much more accurately than a couple of sensors and a camera lens.
zetecuk said:
I always thought the "dual" in dual carriageway meant that there were two seperated roads in each direction - ie. there is a central reservation. Dual Carriageways can have any number of lanes in either direction, from one upwards. This also explains why a four lane road with no central reservation is called a single carriageway.
Very interesting....
I likewise thought that if say there were two up hill lanes and one downhill (or two) with double white lines in the middle - then the speed limit going up was 70mph, - as its a DC!
People need to be educated about this....
jeffreyarcher said:
One of the reasons for the regulations is consistency across the country. We cannot have every jumped up thick councillor deciding what signs will be erected in his area.
But don't we allow "every jumped up thick councillor" to set the speed limits?
Edit: too thick to spell "thick"!
>> Edited by Peter Ward on Tuesday 8th June 09:09
I got my three points and £60 fine for doing 70mph up a "dual lane" road near Chirk on the A5 just entering North Wales.
The limit was sixty.
Why? Well there was no central reservation - I should have spotted that. More importantly there is just one lane in the opposite direction.
I was very cheesed off about it but it was a fair cop in that I *should* have known. I can even remember seeing the laser gun and thinking "ahah - I'm OK".
Very, very annoying - so I sympathise with you. Put it down to experience and use the knowledge gained to ensure you aren't caught the same way again...
It does the make the blood boil though doesn't it! An honest mistake, rather than a deliberate attempt to *speed*, is costing me hundreds...
And the shame of only being caught doing 70! Ten years ago at least I got a decent figure of 99.98mph!
The limit was sixty.
Why? Well there was no central reservation - I should have spotted that. More importantly there is just one lane in the opposite direction.
I was very cheesed off about it but it was a fair cop in that I *should* have known. I can even remember seeing the laser gun and thinking "ahah - I'm OK".
Very, very annoying - so I sympathise with you. Put it down to experience and use the knowledge gained to ensure you aren't caught the same way again...
It does the make the blood boil though doesn't it! An honest mistake, rather than a deliberate attempt to *speed*, is costing me hundreds...
And the shame of only being caught doing 70! Ten years ago at least I got a decent figure of 99.98mph!
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