What's better in a car - fun or ability?
Discussion
I was out yesterday in my wife's Mini One (the older one, 02 reg for clarification) and whilst whizzing around on a nice sunny day, sunroof open, it dawned on me what a fun little car it is.
70 down the dual carriageway felt fast, and I recognised what people on here say about speed not necessarily equating to driving enjoyment. Chucking it into roundabouts and egging it on to go faster while revving the nuts off it, I really enjoyed myself
And I can only imagine what one of the quick ones must be like!
I've been a BMW owner for my last 3 cars now, and the one thing they aren't - is fun imo! Quickish, capable etc etc, yes they are but not fun. And that is even more obvious with my last diesel model.
So what do people look for in their cars, fastest car point to point, best interior plastics, comfortable mile muncher, ultimate grip, steering feel or just something that makes you grin and if so what cars make you feel like that?
I suppose the other consideration is that the above characteristics may not be mutually exclusive and are the best cars those with a combination of all?
I've spent the morning looking at Mini prices rather than working so I must have anjoyed myself
70 down the dual carriageway felt fast, and I recognised what people on here say about speed not necessarily equating to driving enjoyment. Chucking it into roundabouts and egging it on to go faster while revving the nuts off it, I really enjoyed myself
And I can only imagine what one of the quick ones must be like! I've been a BMW owner for my last 3 cars now, and the one thing they aren't - is fun imo! Quickish, capable etc etc, yes they are but not fun. And that is even more obvious with my last diesel model.
So what do people look for in their cars, fastest car point to point, best interior plastics, comfortable mile muncher, ultimate grip, steering feel or just something that makes you grin and if so what cars make you feel like that?
I suppose the other consideration is that the above characteristics may not be mutually exclusive and are the best cars those with a combination of all?
I've spent the morning looking at Mini prices rather than working so I must have anjoyed myself
I find a small BHP can be more fun. I used to have a Cooper (R53) and it was a blast, stuck like glue but not over powerful, needed pushing to be having fun, but still would do 70 on the motorway happily.
Now in the Z3 3.0, it seems if you accelerate for more than a split second you can be doing over the speed limit, and are going too fast for some corners. I'd still miss it, for the insanely quick overtakes and overrun.
Now in the Z3 3.0, it seems if you accelerate for more than a split second you can be doing over the speed limit, and are going too fast for some corners. I'd still miss it, for the insanely quick overtakes and overrun.
Fun, by being involving, or having character. Ability means nothing if you're not in a race.
I'm with you about the BMWs, at least the 3 series ones, I've not driven an E90 though. They are capable cars but they just don't wake up unless you're pushing really hard. In contrast, my old Alfa could also generate impressive cornering speeds and braking force for its day, but those were the things that impressed (or scared) a passenger. The driver, on the other hand, was enjoying the car all of the time, because it was engaging at any speed. The steering didn't impress by leaning the car into big g-forces, but by always informing the driver what was happening under the wheels, how much grip was left, what the road surface texture was like, how close each wheel was to its limit even when the limit was still a long way away. The brakes impressed the driver not by the braking force they commanded but by the way they always let the driver know how much they had in reserve before locking a wheel, and when a wheel locked, the brakes and steering let you know which one it was.
A surprise to all my mates, I recently bought a Nissan Note... because the steering is lovely. Accurate, precise, easy to place, instantly responsive either side of straight ahead. Most motorway bends can be negotiated more by applying pressure to the steering wheel than turning it. A bit like how a brake pedal feels compared to an accelerator. You get more response by pressing a bit harder rather than by moving it a bit more, if that makes sense. And yet it's fluid and linear and accurate, and not darty or nervous. Not a lot of feedback but somehow it feels like it enjoys going around corners, and it doesn't have that horrible springy self centering, as though the car's running too much castor angle, that ruins most FWD steering I've experienced.
Sure, the plastics look and sound cheap, it's not very fast and it looks like grandad's car, and when you press on or try grab it by the scruff of the neck it loses the plot just as you'd expect from something that's as tall as it is wide. But when you drive it smoothly and below its limits, in other words, 99.9% of the time on the road, it's just so fluid. It flows down the road and around the bends like few things I've driven, and, frankly, it feels enthusiastic when driven like this, like its enjoying itself. It's a car that feels good to drive with your fingertips.
And because the speed doesn't matter, it means the car always feels like this. I don't have to wait for an empty, well sighted, curvy b-road or a trackday to enjoy a drive, any road will do, as long as you can forget what you look like while driving it!
I'm with you about the BMWs, at least the 3 series ones, I've not driven an E90 though. They are capable cars but they just don't wake up unless you're pushing really hard. In contrast, my old Alfa could also generate impressive cornering speeds and braking force for its day, but those were the things that impressed (or scared) a passenger. The driver, on the other hand, was enjoying the car all of the time, because it was engaging at any speed. The steering didn't impress by leaning the car into big g-forces, but by always informing the driver what was happening under the wheels, how much grip was left, what the road surface texture was like, how close each wheel was to its limit even when the limit was still a long way away. The brakes impressed the driver not by the braking force they commanded but by the way they always let the driver know how much they had in reserve before locking a wheel, and when a wheel locked, the brakes and steering let you know which one it was.
A surprise to all my mates, I recently bought a Nissan Note... because the steering is lovely. Accurate, precise, easy to place, instantly responsive either side of straight ahead. Most motorway bends can be negotiated more by applying pressure to the steering wheel than turning it. A bit like how a brake pedal feels compared to an accelerator. You get more response by pressing a bit harder rather than by moving it a bit more, if that makes sense. And yet it's fluid and linear and accurate, and not darty or nervous. Not a lot of feedback but somehow it feels like it enjoys going around corners, and it doesn't have that horrible springy self centering, as though the car's running too much castor angle, that ruins most FWD steering I've experienced.
Sure, the plastics look and sound cheap, it's not very fast and it looks like grandad's car, and when you press on or try grab it by the scruff of the neck it loses the plot just as you'd expect from something that's as tall as it is wide. But when you drive it smoothly and below its limits, in other words, 99.9% of the time on the road, it's just so fluid. It flows down the road and around the bends like few things I've driven, and, frankly, it feels enthusiastic when driven like this, like its enjoying itself. It's a car that feels good to drive with your fingertips.
And because the speed doesn't matter, it means the car always feels like this. I don't have to wait for an empty, well sighted, curvy b-road or a trackday to enjoy a drive, any road will do, as long as you can forget what you look like while driving it!
Depends what you want.
Almost by definition I'd say the most accomplished cars - carefully chosen phrase there - are the ones which are quantifiably good at everything. Those which combine high mpg, large load space, high performance, long service intervals, blah, blah blah... You do get cars like that, which have an extraordinary mix of abilities and if you just want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss they are the ones to go for.
Fun is much harder to quantify. It's a personal thing which means a big booming V8 to some people or pin sharp responses and low inertia to others.
You still need a degree of ability for any car I'd say. If it won't ever start in the morning or it has 1920s brakes which are lethal at modern speeds and traffic densities then all but the most committed petrolhead would rapidly tire of it. But ultimately, I think it's valuing that indefinable fun factor alongside (and sometimes over and above) the quantifiable ability of a car that makes you a real petrolhead.
Theoretically, if I had to choose just one I'd (reluctantly) go for ability. The right road or track can make driving even a souless car interesting. If you assume the two are mutually exclusive, then - taken to extremes - you'd have to say that was better than an infinitely desirable car that you could never actually use. In the real world, though, I think you can forgive temprament for character providing the two are in balance!
Almost by definition I'd say the most accomplished cars - carefully chosen phrase there - are the ones which are quantifiably good at everything. Those which combine high mpg, large load space, high performance, long service intervals, blah, blah blah... You do get cars like that, which have an extraordinary mix of abilities and if you just want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss they are the ones to go for.
Fun is much harder to quantify. It's a personal thing which means a big booming V8 to some people or pin sharp responses and low inertia to others.
You still need a degree of ability for any car I'd say. If it won't ever start in the morning or it has 1920s brakes which are lethal at modern speeds and traffic densities then all but the most committed petrolhead would rapidly tire of it. But ultimately, I think it's valuing that indefinable fun factor alongside (and sometimes over and above) the quantifiable ability of a car that makes you a real petrolhead.
Theoretically, if I had to choose just one I'd (reluctantly) go for ability. The right road or track can make driving even a souless car interesting. If you assume the two are mutually exclusive, then - taken to extremes - you'd have to say that was better than an infinitely desirable car that you could never actually use. In the real world, though, I think you can forgive temprament for character providing the two are in balance!
Devil2575 said:
The answer to the OP is that it depends on who you ask.
It's a purely subjective issue and so there is no right answer.
You're absolutely right and I wasn't suggesting somebody would come up with an answer that fits all, more along the lines of what makes a car fun to you. It's a purely subjective issue and so there is no right answer.
I was really surprised yesterday as I've always assumed I was more a fan of the serious ability of a car, saw myself as a 911 turbo sort of man (money permitting) if you know what I mean. However it would appear a 90bhp small hatch is more than enough when the circumstances are right
It's just made me reassess what I want from my next car, so I'm going to nick my wife's car for the 80 mile commute to and from work and see if I still find it fun after a few days
Torque and turn-in. Thats what I crave these days.
Ive gone from 414 down to 197hp and an oil burner at that and can honestly say that im having twice as much fun in the Alpina D3 than I ever did in the V8 RS4. Think the torque figures are similar but the Diesel is relentless in 3rd and 4th and has one of the best chassis setups ive driven yet. I spend most of my time on tight and twisty A roads...plus I dont look at the fuel gauge for two weeks!
Ive gone from 414 down to 197hp and an oil burner at that and can honestly say that im having twice as much fun in the Alpina D3 than I ever did in the V8 RS4. Think the torque figures are similar but the Diesel is relentless in 3rd and 4th and has one of the best chassis setups ive driven yet. I spend most of my time on tight and twisty A roads...plus I dont look at the fuel gauge for two weeks!
Chris71 said:
Depends what you want.
Almost by definition I'd say the most accomplished cars - carefully chosen phrase there - are the ones which are quantifiably good at everything. Those which combine high mpg, large load space, high performance, long service intervals, blah, blah blah... You do get cars like that, which have an extraordinary mix of abilities and if you just want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss they are the ones to go for.
Fun is much harder to quantify. It's a personal thing which means a big booming V8 to some people or pin sharp responses and low inertia to others.
You still need a degree of ability for any car I'd say. If it won't ever start in the morning or it has 1920s brakes which are lethal at modern speeds and traffic densities then all but the most committed petrolhead would rapidly tire of it. But ultimately, I think it's valuing that indefinable fun factor alongside (and sometimes over and above) the quantifiable ability of a car that makes you a real petrolhead.
Theoretically, if I had to choose just one I'd (reluctantly) go for ability. The right road or track can make driving even a souless car interesting. If you assume the two are mutually exclusive, then - taken to extremes - you'd have to say that was better than an infinitely desirable car that you could never actually use. In the real world, though, I think you can forgive temprament for character providing the two are in balance!
Very well said. Even though we reach different conclusions, I have to applaud this post.Almost by definition I'd say the most accomplished cars - carefully chosen phrase there - are the ones which are quantifiably good at everything. Those which combine high mpg, large load space, high performance, long service intervals, blah, blah blah... You do get cars like that, which have an extraordinary mix of abilities and if you just want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss they are the ones to go for.
Fun is much harder to quantify. It's a personal thing which means a big booming V8 to some people or pin sharp responses and low inertia to others.
You still need a degree of ability for any car I'd say. If it won't ever start in the morning or it has 1920s brakes which are lethal at modern speeds and traffic densities then all but the most committed petrolhead would rapidly tire of it. But ultimately, I think it's valuing that indefinable fun factor alongside (and sometimes over and above) the quantifiable ability of a car that makes you a real petrolhead.
Theoretically, if I had to choose just one I'd (reluctantly) go for ability. The right road or track can make driving even a souless car interesting. If you assume the two are mutually exclusive, then - taken to extremes - you'd have to say that was better than an infinitely desirable car that you could never actually use. In the real world, though, I think you can forgive temprament for character providing the two are in balance!
The only bit I disagree with is that, and at the risk of being Clarksoned, I can't imagine any road or track making that Vectra estate I had as a hire car in 2005 interesting
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff