2500M Steering Slowness
Discussion
Depite their various flaws, I'm just hopelessly attracted to these cars. In the 70's and early 80's I had two 2500Ms and a Tuscan SE LWB and now for a few months I have my "new" '77 2500M (3668TM). It's been so hot here in Texas, around 106 degrees F outside and warmer yet in the garage, I haven't been able to do much with it but I have replaced the loose steering rack mounts with new billet mounts from Goodparts.com and the rack is now solid. Problem is, just like on my old 2500Ms from thirty years ago, the steering is still slow, slow, slow. The Tuscan wasn't like that at all, it's steering was pleasingly quick.
Is there anything I can do to remedy this and make the steering quicker? Is there a better replacement rack I should use? Any recommendations?
The temperature is finally starting to drop and I'm looking forward to getting back to playing with the 2500M and doing a few things:
- Fix the steering slowness
- Make sure the cooling system is the latest and greatest and fix if not
- Get the ZS carbs synchronized and operating properly as well as the timing.
- Getting the driver's side carpet to stay put when I get in and out of the car
- Mount my perfect Wolfrace wheels and tires
Prepare it to pass safety inspection by:
- Mounting the nice large gas cap from the '73/'74 days in place of the current '77 small cap that is sloshing gasoline all over the body.
- Making the brake warning light turn off by determining if it's the hand brake switch or the brake pressure sensor (whatever it's called) and fixing it. I'm hoping the brake pressure sensor was set when the brakes were recently redone and the system bled (previous owner).
- Fix the parking brake so it actually works
I want to make this car fun. Right now it isn't...but is sure is beautiful!
Thanks!
Is there anything I can do to remedy this and make the steering quicker? Is there a better replacement rack I should use? Any recommendations?
The temperature is finally starting to drop and I'm looking forward to getting back to playing with the 2500M and doing a few things:
- Fix the steering slowness
- Make sure the cooling system is the latest and greatest and fix if not
- Get the ZS carbs synchronized and operating properly as well as the timing.
- Getting the driver's side carpet to stay put when I get in and out of the car
- Mount my perfect Wolfrace wheels and tires
Prepare it to pass safety inspection by:
- Mounting the nice large gas cap from the '73/'74 days in place of the current '77 small cap that is sloshing gasoline all over the body.
- Making the brake warning light turn off by determining if it's the hand brake switch or the brake pressure sensor (whatever it's called) and fixing it. I'm hoping the brake pressure sensor was set when the brakes were recently redone and the system bled (previous owner).
- Fix the parking brake so it actually works
I want to make this car fun. Right now it isn't...but is sure is beautiful!
Thanks!
Edited by jastx on Saturday 3rd September 20:59
Edited by jastx on Saturday 3rd September 21:00
Alloy rack mounts will if over tightened damage the rack is a first comment, but that they also can be used to 'weight ' the rack too, the difference between just being just so is about 4-5 flats on a set of nuts....
Running through, jack the car, remove the wheels, and put the car on stands on level ground at approx chassis ride level, release the track rods and check that both trunnions are free (these are oiled not greased) at this point both wheel assemblies should have rotate freely outwards IF NOT strip and reassemble (a little bit of help might be needed if all the parts are new, but free to rotate none the less). Check the steering at this point and that should rotate freely (I like to use one finger on the steering wheel spoke and spin it lock to lock) check the UJ's for stiffness and the ally rack mounts for being over tight and check the 'attack' of the column to the intermediate shaft (check the bush in the chassis and grease, this sets the horn press height limits on early cars and the locking ring runs against a bronze bush which damps the up/down forces of the 2 steering UJ's) by releasing the lower column from the pedal box and add or remove packing washers to get the best and cleanest movement.
Adrian@
Running through, jack the car, remove the wheels, and put the car on stands on level ground at approx chassis ride level, release the track rods and check that both trunnions are free (these are oiled not greased) at this point both wheel assemblies should have rotate freely outwards IF NOT strip and reassemble (a little bit of help might be needed if all the parts are new, but free to rotate none the less). Check the steering at this point and that should rotate freely (I like to use one finger on the steering wheel spoke and spin it lock to lock) check the UJ's for stiffness and the ally rack mounts for being over tight and check the 'attack' of the column to the intermediate shaft (check the bush in the chassis and grease, this sets the horn press height limits on early cars and the locking ring runs against a bronze bush which damps the up/down forces of the 2 steering UJ's) by releasing the lower column from the pedal box and add or remove packing washers to get the best and cleanest movement.
Adrian@
Assuming that slave cylinders are in perfect order and shoes are attached correctly with the correct hold-down kits... The parking brake (handbrake) set up IMHO requires that the outer cable support be upgraded by replacing the brazed on clevis pin (which mounts to the support with 2 washers a thackery washer and a clip) with a brazed on bolt (that attaches to the support bracket with 2 washers and nyloc nut nipped up BUT free to rotate this then stops the outer cable from flexing on the cable support bracket (which in turn is mounted to the rear alloy casting) AS FITTED to the later cars.
Once this is done...remove wheels/put on stands/chock the front wheels to allow you to release the parking brake, remove the cables from the lever arms and both inner and outer supports so that the outer cable can be greased ...push the outer cable along to the brake lever and grease whilst pumping grease into the nipple that is in the centre of the outer cable THEN do this again with the outer pulled all the way to the lever arm end and remount when your happy the cables are working 100% then re attach them to the cable supports. With a square drive spanner set both brake drum/shoes with the brake adjusters (along with the help of a couple of presses of the foot pedal to ensure the shoes are central)
Re attach the cables and and ensure that the drum rotates freely, (IF NOT release the nuts at the lever end compensator till they are free) pull the lever one click and both drums should START to drag, again set the lever nuts of the compensator until you can get NO drag at NO lever and a little drag at one click equally affecting both drums. Check that on the 2nd click they are again equally giving more drag and the same on the 3rd.
Adrian@
Once this is done...remove wheels/put on stands/chock the front wheels to allow you to release the parking brake, remove the cables from the lever arms and both inner and outer supports so that the outer cable can be greased ...push the outer cable along to the brake lever and grease whilst pumping grease into the nipple that is in the centre of the outer cable THEN do this again with the outer pulled all the way to the lever arm end and remount when your happy the cables are working 100% then re attach them to the cable supports. With a square drive spanner set both brake drum/shoes with the brake adjusters (along with the help of a couple of presses of the foot pedal to ensure the shoes are central)
Re attach the cables and and ensure that the drum rotates freely, (IF NOT release the nuts at the lever end compensator till they are free) pull the lever one click and both drums should START to drag, again set the lever nuts of the compensator until you can get NO drag at NO lever and a little drag at one click equally affecting both drums. Check that on the 2nd click they are again equally giving more drag and the same on the 3rd.
Adrian@
If you find Adrian's list does not solve the problem it is worth checking if the rear ride height has been raised relative to that of the front, usually for ground clearance reasons. The car as standard only has 3deg of static castor and raising the rear by 1.5" over a 90" wheel base will wind off 1deg. Castor provides the steering's selfcentre force.
jastx said:
Incredible details. Thank you. Adrian, have you ever considered moving to Dallas? Please give it some thought!
I certainly would need generate money for hefty health insurance cover for my 6 year old's cochlear implants (with the operations, they were the price of 2 TVR Sagaris's and on going servicing and upgrades) thankfully on the NHS 
....back on the topic of steering, have you played with various tyre pressures, I advise/use 24lb for the fronts (195 70 14 running Fulda carat assuro's) a couple of Lb's each way of that... and 1 degree of toe-in on tracking.Adrian@
Thanks again for the responses regarding my steering. Just to be sure I'm being clear with my description, what I mean by slow steering is that compared to other cars I own or have driven the 2500M turns much less for the same movement of the steering wheel. It requires greater turn of the steering wheel to get around the same corner than other cars. The rack is solidly in place, the wheels begin turning immediately with steering input. They just don't turn that much as the steering wheel is rotated. I believe it's the steering ratio of the rack. My two other 2500M's from 30 years ago were the same way but my '67 Tuscan had faster steering. It must have used a different rack.
I don't know if my alignment is correct or not yet. Would that make such a significant difference in how much the car turns with steering wheel movement?
The slowness of the steering makes the car feel less of a sports car, less nimble. I'd like to do something about it. If adjustments would make such difference, wonderful. If a faster-ratio steering rack is available, I would like to know that too.
I don't know if my alignment is correct or not yet. Would that make such a significant difference in how much the car turns with steering wheel movement?
The slowness of the steering makes the car feel less of a sports car, less nimble. I'd like to do something about it. If adjustments would make such difference, wonderful. If a faster-ratio steering rack is available, I would like to know that too.
The answer to that question, is yes there is was a difference between ratios on the 2 cars the 67 had a 7 tooth pinion and your has a 6 tooth pinion....THAT said, recently (I now call this rack my Boomerang rack because it keeps on coming back to me!!) I have supplied a quick rack (7 tooth) out to a customer(s) to try only for it to come back because they cannot live with it...at slow speeds they are heavier to turn. Adrian@
Some interesting solutions proposed, thank you.
Adrian, I'm glad you were able to confirm my feelings about the Tuscan vs 2500M steering with facts. I don't recall the Tuscan being heavy to turn. Although the device in the photo above from phillpot is tempting, I think I will email you regarding the quick rack.
Adrian, I'm glad you were able to confirm my feelings about the Tuscan vs 2500M steering with facts. I don't recall the Tuscan being heavy to turn. Although the device in the photo above from phillpot is tempting, I think I will email you regarding the quick rack.
Edited by jastx on Friday 9th September 19:58
jastx said:
Some interesting solutions proposed, thank you.
Adrian, I'm glad you were able to confirm my feelings about the Tuscan vs 2500M steering with facts. I don't recall the Tuscan being heavy to turn. Although the device in the photo above from phillpot is tempting, I think I will email you regarding the quick rack.
Tire size/grip will make all the difference in required effort at parking speeds. Adrian, I'm glad you were able to confirm my feelings about the Tuscan vs 2500M steering with facts. I don't recall the Tuscan being heavy to turn. Although the device in the photo above from phillpot is tempting, I think I will email you regarding the quick rack.
Edited by jastx on Friday 9th September 19:58
Best,
B.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coleman-Steering-Quickener...
Better start taking a large daily dose of steroids.
Best,
B.
Better start taking a large daily dose of steroids.
Best,
B.
I had the same expierience, coming to a Taimar after a vixen, with a 20 year gap! The Taimar steering was much duller, wich prompted me to approach Adrian for a quick rack, and he explained that I did not want one! Just a set of solid mounts.
These installed, and a good cleaning and lubrcating of all moving parts involved, tracking done, and it was,sort of better. I do remember the kick back of the Vixen, and appreciate it's absence in the Taimar, but it was still dull.
Sometime later, I got a puncture in the front 195X70X14 Fulda, and, carrying a space saver (Volvo) spare, and being far from home, ended up having to buy a pair of stock tyres, Firestone 185X70X14 Just to get home, and the difference it made! They are still on! The steering is lighter, turn in feels ouicker, and there is more feel.
It does not look underwheeled, as the profile is almost the same as the rears 195X70X14 Khumo's, and, when I had a bit of track time, found it understeering, in a comfortable controlable,accepable way for a road car.....Still quick!
These installed, and a good cleaning and lubrcating of all moving parts involved, tracking done, and it was,sort of better. I do remember the kick back of the Vixen, and appreciate it's absence in the Taimar, but it was still dull.
Sometime later, I got a puncture in the front 195X70X14 Fulda, and, carrying a space saver (Volvo) spare, and being far from home, ended up having to buy a pair of stock tyres, Firestone 185X70X14 Just to get home, and the difference it made! They are still on! The steering is lighter, turn in feels ouicker, and there is more feel.
It does not look underwheeled, as the profile is almost the same as the rears 195X70X14 Khumo's, and, when I had a bit of track time, found it understeering, in a comfortable controlable,accepable way for a road car.....Still quick!
dryden,
Thanks for the reply, great story. Tires are one of my car's problems. It came with the T-slot wheels and brand new 225/60R 14s (BF Goodrich Radial TA's), even the spare which doesn't fit in the bonnet. I found a beautiful set of Wolfrace wheels with tires as well and they're also shod with 225/60's in the rear but narrower 215s in front. I haven't mounted them yet to feel the difference but don't expect much.
A lot has happened in 30 years. The performance line between sports cars and (sports) sedans has narrowed quite a bit. My daily driver is Pontiac G8 (Holden VE Commodore). It's a full-sized sedan and its steering is quick and precise and feels better than almost any of the sports cars I have owned. I'm afraid no change in tires or suspension settings will improve my 2500M steering more than just a little. I think I must try the quicker rack and will downsize the tires as quickly as feasible too.
Thanks for the reply, great story. Tires are one of my car's problems. It came with the T-slot wheels and brand new 225/60R 14s (BF Goodrich Radial TA's), even the spare which doesn't fit in the bonnet. I found a beautiful set of Wolfrace wheels with tires as well and they're also shod with 225/60's in the rear but narrower 215s in front. I haven't mounted them yet to feel the difference but don't expect much.
A lot has happened in 30 years. The performance line between sports cars and (sports) sedans has narrowed quite a bit. My daily driver is Pontiac G8 (Holden VE Commodore). It's a full-sized sedan and its steering is quick and precise and feels better than almost any of the sports cars I have owned. I'm afraid no change in tires or suspension settings will improve my 2500M steering more than just a little. I think I must try the quicker rack and will downsize the tires as quickly as feasible too.
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