Anyone been on the Nordschleife this weekend? Bonkers!
Discussion
I go down to the Nurburgring a few times a year and was down again over the weekend as some friends were visiting from the UK. A combination of sunny weather and coinciding with a Biker Festival at the GP circuit meant there was lots and lots of traffic on the ring. The result - a huge number of accidents. It's normal to see accidents on the ring but this was just outrageous. Over the weekend we must have seen at least a dozen cars/bikes in accidents. Some of them very serious. This morning a Clio 172 was completely destroyed, resulting in the helicopter ambulance being called in. Hope those guys are ok.
There just simply needs to be more control - too many bikes and cars mixing it up and drivers who are not necessarily experienced on the track. At the very least there needs to be some sort of gap between allowing drivers on, if the result is queues then so be it.
There just simply needs to be more control - too many bikes and cars mixing it up and drivers who are not necessarily experienced on the track. At the very least there needs to be some sort of gap between allowing drivers on, if the result is queues then so be it.
Thud_Mcguffin said:
I go down to the Nurburgring a few times a year and was down again over the weekend as some friends were visiting from the UK. A combination of sunny weather and coinciding with a Biker Festival at the GP circuit meant there was lots and lots of traffic on the ring. The result - a huge number of accidents. It's normal to see accidents on the ring but this was just outrageous. Over the weekend we must have seen at least a dozen cars/bikes in accidents. Some of them very serious. This morning a Clio 172 was completely destroyed, resulting in the helicopter ambulance being called in. Hope those guys are ok.
There just simply needs to be more control - too many bikes and cars mixing it up and drivers who are not necessarily experienced on the track. At the very least there needs to be some sort of gap between allowing drivers on, if the result is queues then so be it.
I heard the passenger was thrown out of the window and died, from another guy who was out there. Awful, feel for the family.There just simply needs to be more control - too many bikes and cars mixing it up and drivers who are not necessarily experienced on the track. At the very least there needs to be some sort of gap between allowing drivers on, if the result is queues then so be it.
Jesus christ how bl**dy tragic for all involved, I often think its a case of there for the grace of god go I, I was there in may and on the sat evening session (just after Mclaren totaled one of their new cars)it was absolute mayhem with the track closing early after 2 ambulances were needed in a short space of time, early track closure on safety grounds was correct on that occasion. the thing is though that the more these tragic accidents occur the closer we arrive inch by inch to there being no more TF days at the ring.
Cheers.....Tony..
Cheers.....Tony..
Here's the article for those with a rudimentary grasp of German...
http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
tozerman said:
the thing is though that the more these tragic accidents occur the closer we arrive inch by inch to there being no more TF days at the ring.
I thought the exact same circa near 10 odd yrs ago when I 1st started going, it never happened tho, the financial fiasco & thus govt debts incured of late will surely mean tf will have to continue no matter what, to help bail out the hole on the state bank account.I personally hate the car & bike mix, always have, it wont change for the forseable future tho.
Always 'ring trackdays for car only frollics tho.
tangoecho said:
Here's the article for those with a rudimentary grasp of German...
http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
The Ring is a public road during Touristenfahrt. Last time I went for a drive on the public road here in the UK or in Europe, I do not remember doning my race suit, crash helmet and getting asked to produce my National A... http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
Agree though, that the UK mags big up the Ring as a weekend piss-up away with a lot of VLN style driving thrown in...
Cheburator mk2 said:
The Ring is a public road during Touristenfahrt. Last time I went for a drive on the public road here in the UK or in Europe, I do not remember doning my race suit, crash helmet and getting asked to produce my National A...
This ^^As soon as there is an insistance of cars having to be caged, cars and bikes running seperate sessions, etc. It no longer can be classed as public days for tourists, and that is the end of TF.
My condolences to all involved this weekend.
Image of the car from the side...
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheRing
Seems pretty clear now the guy who got thrown out did not wear a seat belt....
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheRing
Seems pretty clear now the guy who got thrown out did not wear a seat belt....
All we know is he was thrown from the car. He might not have been wearing a belt but its entirely speculation at this point. Its possible to come out of a seatbelt, especially if its loose / poorly fitted, or if the seat breaks and collapses. The information the police published doesn't mention seatbelts.
Condolances the family.
Condolances the family.
My condolences to both the clio passenger's family and the biker's family
I was there on the 28th (the day the biker died)... it had been a pretty busy weekend.
I always treat the place like I would a 'fast road' and not as a race track, although I have a half-cage car and always wear a helmet, 6-point harness etc in my road car when lapping there because I know how dangerous the place is if you go off even at moderate pace in the wrong place. With so many blind corners and so many bikes it really is a bit of a lottery driving more than 80% commitment.
There had been a VLN race the day before and rain over night and the locals where saying there was a lot of oil and the surface in general was very slippery.
The cost of repairs to the armco alone is enough to put me off over-driving on a tourist day never mind binning the car and causing anyone else to have an accident (particularly bikers).
I leave bikes loads of room on corners and wait to pass safely... on that day (the 28th) I was out in the late afternoon and the number of cars clearly on 'commited' laps chasing times and taking big risks truely concerned me - I heard a number of bikers having arguements in the car park with drivers of cars they felt where passing too close, on the wrong side etc. everything was just getting a bit heated. I even had a guy come up to me asking why I didn't 'get out of his way' when he'd been flashing his lights (I'd actually backed off and indicated twice to let him past, but he didn't notice / wasn't able to get by). He was clearly chasing a lap time, otherwise why would it matter if it took a couple of corners to get past?
Seems people forget it's not a race day, it's not even a trackday... it's just a 'de-restricted one way toll road' as my insruance likes to call it.. There is a huge range of people and vehicles - the only requirement is that your vehicle can travel faster than 60kph and is road-legal - That day there was a guy cruising around in a 356 speedster with his wife very slowly, a couple of UK reg cars who where also very slowly driving around either learning the track or just taking it all in, guys in rental cars, familys in merc and bmw estates... I'm sure they would have caused a few 'moments' if your 100% commited over a blind crest in your GT3 RS...
Lets hope they dont react like the UK with 'great roads' and introduce speed limits and heavy policing.
Perhaps they just need to have a greater police presense on tourists days and pull over the odd person for dodgy passing / agressive behaviour so everyone remembers its a public road and should be treated as such?
I was there on the 28th (the day the biker died)... it had been a pretty busy weekend.
I always treat the place like I would a 'fast road' and not as a race track, although I have a half-cage car and always wear a helmet, 6-point harness etc in my road car when lapping there because I know how dangerous the place is if you go off even at moderate pace in the wrong place. With so many blind corners and so many bikes it really is a bit of a lottery driving more than 80% commitment.
There had been a VLN race the day before and rain over night and the locals where saying there was a lot of oil and the surface in general was very slippery.
The cost of repairs to the armco alone is enough to put me off over-driving on a tourist day never mind binning the car and causing anyone else to have an accident (particularly bikers).
I leave bikes loads of room on corners and wait to pass safely... on that day (the 28th) I was out in the late afternoon and the number of cars clearly on 'commited' laps chasing times and taking big risks truely concerned me - I heard a number of bikers having arguements in the car park with drivers of cars they felt where passing too close, on the wrong side etc. everything was just getting a bit heated. I even had a guy come up to me asking why I didn't 'get out of his way' when he'd been flashing his lights (I'd actually backed off and indicated twice to let him past, but he didn't notice / wasn't able to get by). He was clearly chasing a lap time, otherwise why would it matter if it took a couple of corners to get past?
Seems people forget it's not a race day, it's not even a trackday... it's just a 'de-restricted one way toll road' as my insruance likes to call it.. There is a huge range of people and vehicles - the only requirement is that your vehicle can travel faster than 60kph and is road-legal - That day there was a guy cruising around in a 356 speedster with his wife very slowly, a couple of UK reg cars who where also very slowly driving around either learning the track or just taking it all in, guys in rental cars, familys in merc and bmw estates... I'm sure they would have caused a few 'moments' if your 100% commited over a blind crest in your GT3 RS...
Lets hope they dont react like the UK with 'great roads' and introduce speed limits and heavy policing.
Perhaps they just need to have a greater police presense on tourists days and pull over the odd person for dodgy passing / agressive behaviour so everyone remembers its a public road and should be treated as such?
Edited by paulmnz on Monday 5th September 18:46
^^^ good post.
One of the reasons I have never been. I would not want to be trying to learn the circuit whilst mixing it with bikes. I'd be too focused on what comes next rather than looking out for a bike or a car chasing a lap time. One day I will but I would only drive it in a fully caged, race prepped car which I have and on an organised day.
One of the reasons I have never been. I would not want to be trying to learn the circuit whilst mixing it with bikes. I'd be too focused on what comes next rather than looking out for a bike or a car chasing a lap time. One day I will but I would only drive it in a fully caged, race prepped car which I have and on an organised day.
I've never been, but would really like to and plan to in 2012. Thing is, public or not, I would imagine that everyone who goes there typically views it as a race track, and the majority will try to drive as fast as they can, or dare, to.
I understand that it is a very tricky and demanding circuit, and I for one would not try driving my TVR Sagaris around there until I've had some form of tuition. That doesn't remove the possibility of someone taking me out, or me making a mistake, but it must reduce the possibility.
Perhaps a mandatory training session would help, included in price of first ever visit, aswell as managing number of users on track at any time, knowing their location, using GPS and a bit of software.
I used to race on the Velodrome at Manchester on a push bike, and you had to get a certificate to do that which is significantly less dangerous than the Nordschleife !
I understand that it is a very tricky and demanding circuit, and I for one would not try driving my TVR Sagaris around there until I've had some form of tuition. That doesn't remove the possibility of someone taking me out, or me making a mistake, but it must reduce the possibility.
Perhaps a mandatory training session would help, included in price of first ever visit, aswell as managing number of users on track at any time, knowing their location, using GPS and a bit of software.
I used to race on the Velodrome at Manchester on a push bike, and you had to get a certificate to do that which is significantly less dangerous than the Nordschleife !
TOURISTENFAHRT = TOURISTEN (Tourist) + FAHRT (Drive)
So which part of the above you guys do not understand? How hard some of us have to stress that IT IS NOT a track day, but a public road? When was the last time the rozzers asked to check your roll cage and harnesses before you joined the M25?
One more example, in case you miss the point yet again - I was there the weekend when the biker died. I did 6 laps, 2 of them with my wife and our 13month old baby daughter strapped in her Recaro seat in the back of our M5 Touring. I wonder what MotorSportVision would say if I turn up at Bedford and ask to do the same?
That is the beauty of the place, it is open to everyone. What we did as a family was precisely a tourist drive. And so did probably another 2000 cars that day. It is not a track day. Agreed, some locals, but also visitos drive way too fast for the real tourists, but believe me, the police is there to mettle out punishment a lot more often than you think.
I stopped doing TF in general as I also think that cars and bikes don't mix too well and I can use my race car during the track days, which is not possible during TF. But would never suggest even for a moment, that the TF format is changed. There is a saying in Europe - Those who are scared of bears, should not go hunting in the woods...
So which part of the above you guys do not understand? How hard some of us have to stress that IT IS NOT a track day, but a public road? When was the last time the rozzers asked to check your roll cage and harnesses before you joined the M25?
One more example, in case you miss the point yet again - I was there the weekend when the biker died. I did 6 laps, 2 of them with my wife and our 13month old baby daughter strapped in her Recaro seat in the back of our M5 Touring. I wonder what MotorSportVision would say if I turn up at Bedford and ask to do the same?
That is the beauty of the place, it is open to everyone. What we did as a family was precisely a tourist drive. And so did probably another 2000 cars that day. It is not a track day. Agreed, some locals, but also visitos drive way too fast for the real tourists, but believe me, the police is there to mettle out punishment a lot more often than you think.
I stopped doing TF in general as I also think that cars and bikes don't mix too well and I can use my race car during the track days, which is not possible during TF. But would never suggest even for a moment, that the TF format is changed. There is a saying in Europe - Those who are scared of bears, should not go hunting in the woods...
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Monday 5th September 21:09
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Monday 5th September 21:13
tangoecho said:
I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
I'm put off going to the ring precisely because of the Top Gear and Evo publicity, the number of chav cars I see sporting ring stickers is frightening.The way I think about it to drive it like a racetrack I'd need to spend a whole day minimum, maybe two or more building up. I'm never flat out on trackays until the afternoon and thats only usually 3.something miles, not 12miles. This make it to me not an appropriate place to go for a few laps on Saturday (after if going with mates invariably a load of beers friday night).
tangoecho said:
Here's the article for those with a rudimentary grasp of German...
http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
This kind of attitude will get all of us banned. I've never been to the ring; i'd like to have the chance thoughhttp://www.rhein-zeitung.de/regionales/bad-neuenah...
Car flipped over multiple times, One dead (rear seat passenger, got thrown out of the car - was he wearing a seat belt?), one airlifted to hopsital, one light(er) injuries...
Driving too fast in the rain - I hate the way the Ring is talked up in all the UK car mags (Evo, TG etc) without ever a serious discussion of the risks... far too many lager louts overestimating themselves, thereby endangering all of us and the future of the Ring. It's not a bloody Legoland ride!
Sorry for the contrarian view here. I obviously do feel sorry for the guys involved, but perhaps what the Ring needs is fewer but better drivers, and I also feel that roll-cages and proper harnesses should be compulsory.
BTW not sure it was mentioned here but the week-end before a biker died at Klostertal. On what whas supposed to be his last lap of the day.... never do "last laps". He was a friend of a friend...
I've been there all weekend and have just got home. This was my 4th time there and was probably my last. I only did 2 laps over the weekend due to all the reasons above and especially the cost if you were to crash. A guy staying on the campsite next to us wrote off his mg zr yesterday and had a bill for 2.5k and left his car there for scrap. He was in his fourtys so was not a boy racer. I would much rather do 3 or 4 trackdays in this country for what it costs to go to the ring for a long weekend.
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