The market has stalled?

[lowdrag]

I've been, out of curiosity and an interest in buying for the other half, been following two particular cars on Ebay over the last few months, both rebuilt with new shells, both seemingly in tip top condition. Over that period one has come down in price by 35% as a starting bid, the other by 25% as a fixed price, yet not a sniff. Yet recently both are relisted with increased prices! It seems to me that the lower end of the market (£5,000 plus, not below) has completely ground to a halt, whereas up in the rarified air of the super rich cars are changing hands with no problem. As an example my C-type was sold in a couple of weeks at the asking price, although we aren't talking life-changing money here, like a real D-type would.

So, have you any experience of trying to sell and getting nowhere, or on the other foot managed to snap up a bargain from a desperate seller? I'd be interested to hear.

Edited by lowdrag on Tuesday 6th September 08:13

[neutral 3]

It's dire at the moment.....And if you have cash ( Very few have at the moment ) there are some real bargains to be had .
From what I hear the top end stuff ( Astons and Ferraris Vintage Bentleys etc ) is still moving. But these buyers will always have money.

Spoke to a guy yesterday who has had his Aston DB5 for over 25 years, very Original and in a Rare Colour , and one of the last built . You wouldn't beleive what he paid for her then. Reckons he has several people interested @ 200 grand !!

[na]

was on eBay yesterday for classic parts vote, on it were a potentially good blue one, a couple of potentially good bright red ones, a potentially good yellow/orange one I think I went to look at 4 years ago but now better finished and lower priced

[vixen1700]

Had my XJS up for two weeks on here and carandclassic, and not one phone call or email. Not desperate to sell, mind.

[Jollyclub]

You sold your C-Type????

[lowdrag]

Jollyclub said:

You sold your C-Type????

Um, sadly yes. I'm afraid that - and I can't be alone - the crunch hit badly. Exchange rate from 1.50 to 1.10, interest rates through the floor, so loads of money tied up in cars and very little income. If I was given the choice of which car to drive it was always a) the D-type, b) the E-type and a long way behind the C-type. I just didn't like driving it. Very sad, so in the end a decision was made to quietly offer it to various people and it was sold last month. I enjoyed the project, I enjoyed the invitations to Goodwood, and I'm proud to have left a legacy in the Jaguar world, something that didn't exist. But it was time to turn the page.

[Marquis Rex]

993 Turbo Porsches seem to be appreciating in value- seeing them going for 50-60k (low mileage) where as before they were closer to 40K. This seems to support your argument for the upper end of the market

[neutral 3]

993 Turbo , awesome car . Would love one !!!

Ime still kicking myself for turning down a Black Mettalic 964 Turbo about 6 years ago. £18,000 would have secured it. Full German Porshe Dealer Service History as well . I havnt seen anything near that price for a long time.

Lovely car the 964 Turbo , but in a straight line only . Certainly not a Drivers car like the lighter and far more agile 3.2 Carrera .

[Marquis Rex]

neutral 3 said:

993 Turbo , awesome car . Would love one !!!

Ime still kicking myself for turning down a Black Mettalic 964 Turbo about 6 years ago. £18,000 would have secured it. Full German Porshe Dealer Service History as well . I havnt seen anything near that price for a long time.

Lovely car the 964 Turbo , but in a straight line only . Certainly not a Drivers car like the lighter and far more agile 3.2 Carrera .

Being the owner of a 993 Turbo- I couldn't resist the mammoth performance, however I would have to agree with you, be it the N/A 993, a 3.2 Carerra or a 993 RS, they're more fun to drive with more communicative steering and a rortier exhaust note

[esv683]

Lowdrag
Can i ask you why you did not like driving the c type ?

[lowdrag]

I think that the driving of any car is a very personal thing; one man's meat is another man's poison so to speak. I didn't like the Porsche/Beetle-style over centre pedals and overall the car was a tad too early for me in its feel. It steered, it handled, it braked well for a drum-braked car, but the cockpit is small (how on earth Tony Dron drove it so well beats me) and I just was never that happy driving it. Now I've never liked Porsches either, yet for the life of me I can't understand why since their integrity of engineering is legend, but that's just the way it is.

[dmulally]

lowdrag said:

I think that the driving of any car is a very personal thing; one man's meat is another man's poison so to speak. I didn't like the Porsche/Beetle-style over centre pedals and overall the car was a tad too early for me in its feel. It steered, it handled, it braked well for a drum-braked car, but the cockpit is small (how on earth Tony Dron drove it so well beats me) and I just was never that happy driving it. Now I've never liked Porsches either, yet for the life of me I can't understand why since their integrity of engineering is legend, but that's just the way it is.

I built a Lotus 23 replica. 420kgs with around 300hp in the boot. Got permits to drive it. Racing slicks. The works.

It has driven a few times around the block and put it back in the garage due to dodgy plugs. Changed the plugs, started it up to test it works and hasnt been touched since in over a year.

I dont like driving it.

[crankedup]

Austin sevens are almost flying off the shelves it seems, and the prices have rocketed during the last 12-18 months or so. Chummies and the rarer coach built A7 seem very popular with some very silly prices being asked, they stick until the price is less silly! My own A7 'Swallow saloon' I sold for 18k about 18 months ago is now back on market at an asking price of 25k.
Vintage R.R. also continue the steady increase in sale prices as are other 'quality marques' so far as I can see.

[williamp]

I'm always confused by the prices of pre-war cars.

They are increasing in value, yet I dont get this because:
1) Those who remember them in their youth are now very old indeed, unlike those os us from the 80s helping Capri prices rise
2) They are difficult, uncomfortable to drive and hard work over any sort of distance
3) They cant really do modern traffic. Or some modern roads
4) They are unreliable, and might not get you there
5) They cant all be raced/trialled by VSCC members

So is it just novelty value which keeps their value bouyant/growing, or something else I have missed?

[lowdrag]

I've been a Jaguar man - so post war really - all my life, yet were I to win the lottery there are two cars that would instantly be sought out and those are an Invicta Low Chassis and an Alfa Romeo 8C, bot pre-war. I've been in both and driven briefly one, and they left a lasting impression. I've seen them all over Europe, on british plates, so they can't be that hard to drive. Both are now commanding stratospheric prices, but one has the right to dream.

[Marquis Rex]

williamp said:

I'm always confused by the prices of pre-war cars.

They are increasing in value, yet I dont get this because:
1) Those who remember them in their youth are now very old indeed, unlike those os us from the 80s helping Capri prices rise
2) They are difficult, uncomfortable to drive and hard work over any sort of distance
3) They cant really do modern traffic. Or some modern roads
4) They are unreliable, and might not get you there
5) They cant all be raced/trialled by VSCC members

So is it just novelty value which keeps their value bouyant/growing, or something else I have missed?

It HAS to be a balance of:

Folks like Lowdrag who are attracted/allured by cars from BEFORE his formative years and the increasing rarity of these vehicles.

It even happens amongst younger folk too, my friend is 36 years olf, has a 66 Buick but lusts after a late 40s American car instead.

I predict muscle cars from the late 60s/early 70s appeal will rocket- this is being fueled by modern POPULAR culture films like 'Blade' and the Fast and the Furious part 2 and 3 where muscle cars were used. In Blade- with the sound track and the trendy surroundings- a Supra would have been more fitting for the heros car but instead they give him a 68 charger. Similarly, the original Fast and Furious film was littered with Jap-crap-buzz boxes, but the ratings went up inthe later films when they featured 60s and 70s muscle cars- again- even though you wouldn't think it would suit the ones the films appeal to.
As a result these muscle cars will continue to appeal to folks alot younger...

[a8hex]

williamp said:

I'm always confused by the prices of pre-war cars.

They are increasing in value, yet I dont get this because:
1) Those who remember them in their youth are now very old indeed, unlike those os us from the 80s helping Capri prices rise
2) They are difficult, uncomfortable to drive and hard work over any sort of distance
3) They cant really do modern traffic. Or some modern roads
4) They are unreliable, and might not get you there
5) They cant all be raced/trialled by VSCC members

So is it just novelty value which keeps their value bouyant/growing, or something else I have missed?

Aren't all those reasons why they are desirable?
I don't want a classic car which is "easy" to drive, I've got a modern(ish) car which is easy to drive.
My classic has to be something completely different. Lowdrag commented that he found the C-Type to old to drive, well I found an E-Type to new to drive. It might be the model immediately after my XK150, but in so many ways they are years apart, the XK was the latest tech, 1949 style, well for its engine and front suspension. The E was well ahead of the game in 1961.

I spent most of the year deliberating over whether I should put a 5speed gear box in my XK. The OD box has been lunched by the upgraded engine. The replacement box is much easier to use. It will give the car a whole new lease of life. But it will make it less of a challenge to drive and therefore in many ways less fun.
So to me at least the appeal of driving a pre-war car would be exactly that :-
They are difficult and uncomfortable to drive. This is a interesting challenge.
They can't really do modern traffic. Well I bought my XK150 because it had 4 wheel disc brakes so it would be easier in traffic, but an earlier car would just mean you need to read the road ahead that much more. You need to plan ahead, stay alert... in other words you need to drive.
They are unreliable. Goody tinkering.

[TheMuffinMan]

williamp said:

I'm always confused by the prices of pre-war cars.

They are increasing in value, yet I dont get this because:
1) Those who remember them in their youth are now very old indeed, unlike those os us from the 80s helping Capri prices rise

Don't underestimate the amount of young people who are involved in vintage cars, both competing with them and just pootling about in them. There is an increasing amount of 'young' vintage car owners who are not always from vintage car backgrounds.

[2slo]

lowdrag said:

I've been a Jaguar man - so post war really - all my life, yet were I to win the lottery there are two cars that would instantly be sought out and those are an Invicta Low Chassis and an Alfa Romeo 8C, bot pre-war. I've been in both and driven briefly one, and they left a lasting impression. I've seen them all over Europe, on british plates, so they can't be that hard to drive. Both are now commanding stratospheric prices, but one has the right to dream.

Funny that. If I were to win the lottery I'd be looking for a Lynx D type and a s1 4.2 E type coupe! (amongst others)

[austin]

TheMuffinMan said:

williamp said:

I'm always confused by the prices of pre-war cars.

They are increasing in value, yet I dont get this because:
1) Those who remember them in their youth are now very old indeed, unlike those os us from the 80s helping Capri prices rise

Don't underestimate the amount of young people who are involved in vintage cars, both competing with them and just pootling about in them. There is an increasing amount of 'young' vintage car owners who are not always from vintage car backgrounds.

Exactly, I'm under 40 and have just bought a car that is more than twice my age.

As for the challenge, that's the whole point. I mean the brakes aren't even coupled, (ie the foot brake does the real wheels and the handbrake does the fronts.)