Ultima, a trackday car?
Discussion
Hi,
I'm currently driving an Ariel Atom 3 (supercharged), primarily on track. I'm looking into an Ultima to expand the "scope of fun" :-)
I'm planning on driving the Ultima > 80% of the time on track (no races though) and got a couple of questions related:
a) I recently had a meeting with the real nice blokes at the German builder (www.ultimacars.de) who strongly recommended the CanAm over the GTR. I personally prefer the GTR over the CanAM (just the stunning looks!) but they have some valid points which made me scratching my head:
- weight savings: CanAm is lighter than the GTR
- no hassle with air con (which appears to have it's issues) + even more weight savings related
- you're driving on "good" weather conditions most of the time anyway. Worst case there's the soft top
Would you guys have some thoughts there?
b) I'll go for semi-slicks and even slicks on track. Are there any upgrades I should consider beyond what's already offered the Ultima options list (sport brakes, dry sump etc.)?
c) Would you see any "no go"s for the usage profile I'm envisioning? Would you have any concerns around using the Ultima primarily as a track vehicle? I've heard some words about the "soft" chassis which might not be as stiff as expected, but really can't comment on that one.
I definitely would appreciate any feedback to make my decision easier :-)
Thanks
Dierk
I'm currently driving an Ariel Atom 3 (supercharged), primarily on track. I'm looking into an Ultima to expand the "scope of fun" :-)
I'm planning on driving the Ultima > 80% of the time on track (no races though) and got a couple of questions related:
a) I recently had a meeting with the real nice blokes at the German builder (www.ultimacars.de) who strongly recommended the CanAm over the GTR. I personally prefer the GTR over the CanAM (just the stunning looks!) but they have some valid points which made me scratching my head:
- weight savings: CanAm is lighter than the GTR
- no hassle with air con (which appears to have it's issues) + even more weight savings related
- you're driving on "good" weather conditions most of the time anyway. Worst case there's the soft top
Would you guys have some thoughts there?
b) I'll go for semi-slicks and even slicks on track. Are there any upgrades I should consider beyond what's already offered the Ultima options list (sport brakes, dry sump etc.)?
c) Would you see any "no go"s for the usage profile I'm envisioning? Would you have any concerns around using the Ultima primarily as a track vehicle? I've heard some words about the "soft" chassis which might not be as stiff as expected, but really can't comment on that one.
I definitely would appreciate any feedback to make my decision easier :-)
Thanks
Dierk
Hi Dierk,
I think you'd be wise to speak to the factory direct. If you let them know what purpose you envision for the car, they will advise accordingly.
As far as the GTR vs Canam debate (having tracked them both), there's little to choose between them. The GTR maybe a little more aerodynamic (no data behind this, just my opinion) and will better protect you from the elements, by the Can-Am will be easier to get in and out of - but no full cage (unless you put one in of course). As for aircon, usually I'd advise fitting it to either car - but if it's only going on the track, then there's no reason not to omit it - however, it is a royal pain to retofit, so it might be worth fitting anyway (you say you're not going to race it so outright weight saving isn't really critical).
If you're going to run slicks, the driveshafts and suspension will take a hammering and may need beefing up. The factory make a kit to uprate the suspension brackets and the driveshafts are supposed to be good for 1000hp or something. Either way, if run alot of kerbs and abuse the throttle you need to prepare accordingly.
Either way, they are epic trackcars. You may need to play with the suspension and geometry to dial out some 'safety factor' understeer if you experience it, but as a package it's hard to beat.
That said, the Atom is unashamedly uncompromising as a trackday car (bit like a Radical), part of the Ultima's appeal is it's capabilities on the road as well as the track. Might be worth bearing in mind when speccing the car, otherwise you'll end up with two toys to achieve the same purpose?
I think you'd be wise to speak to the factory direct. If you let them know what purpose you envision for the car, they will advise accordingly.
As far as the GTR vs Canam debate (having tracked them both), there's little to choose between them. The GTR maybe a little more aerodynamic (no data behind this, just my opinion) and will better protect you from the elements, by the Can-Am will be easier to get in and out of - but no full cage (unless you put one in of course). As for aircon, usually I'd advise fitting it to either car - but if it's only going on the track, then there's no reason not to omit it - however, it is a royal pain to retofit, so it might be worth fitting anyway (you say you're not going to race it so outright weight saving isn't really critical).
If you're going to run slicks, the driveshafts and suspension will take a hammering and may need beefing up. The factory make a kit to uprate the suspension brackets and the driveshafts are supposed to be good for 1000hp or something. Either way, if run alot of kerbs and abuse the throttle you need to prepare accordingly.
Either way, they are epic trackcars. You may need to play with the suspension and geometry to dial out some 'safety factor' understeer if you experience it, but as a package it's hard to beat.
That said, the Atom is unashamedly uncompromising as a trackday car (bit like a Radical), part of the Ultima's appeal is it's capabilities on the road as well as the track. Might be worth bearing in mind when speccing the car, otherwise you'll end up with two toys to achieve the same purpose?
I have a can am and I get hot as hell when driving it. Aircon is a must but it doesn't do much when the roof is off. I am investigating ways of getting loads more fresh air in. Like Naca vents in doors with pipe leading to vent on the inside. However my car is complete and building extra venting into a new build would allow more options.
Ideas anyone bearing in mind that I don't really want to pull the whole thing apart?
Ideas anyone bearing in mind that I don't really want to pull the whole thing apart?
This is probably going to be controversial, but here goes!
If you want to do 80% trackdays I would go for something more Radical. The Ultima is a fantastic car but there will always be better cars for the track that are purpose built.
An Ultima (even the hair dressers one) is better than pretty much any other road car on the track but it is still a road car unless modified heavily to become a racer.
I used my GTR on the track and will do again when it is rebuilt, but it will always be a road car I can track (60 to 70% road). If you try a Radical or purpose built racer you will see the limitations of an Ultima on track.
I know I am probably going to shot down here but these are my opinions.
Paul
If you want to do 80% trackdays I would go for something more Radical. The Ultima is a fantastic car but there will always be better cars for the track that are purpose built.
An Ultima (even the hair dressers one) is better than pretty much any other road car on the track but it is still a road car unless modified heavily to become a racer.
I used my GTR on the track and will do again when it is rebuilt, but it will always be a road car I can track (60 to 70% road). If you try a Radical or purpose built racer you will see the limitations of an Ultima on track.
I know I am probably going to shot down here but these are my opinions.
Paul
I went from Ariel 300 to Ultima GTR (initially LS7 700hp, track setup and 970kg wet weight). There is a big difference between them, the Ariel Atom is like a motorbike, very good on a track and bags of fun on the public road. The Ultima is in a different class on the track - just look at the Topgear lap times - very neutral, lots more grip on corners and difficult to keep under 150. Very good on the public road since you can wound down the suspension. That V8 sound on a high revving LS7 (well 7.5k but not bad for a 7.0L!)- wonderful!
Talk to Ultima regarding GTR v CanAm on a track and ensure you get the trackday parts list (rose joint suspension, extra suspension bar etc). Take it from me you need aircon, highpowered SBC engines give out alot of heat, you may get away on an opentop but a hot day? I think it only adds around 25kg.
BTW I kept both the Ariel Atom and Ultima GTR; both are very good at what they do, how they look and their unique engine sounds
Tim
Talk to Ultima regarding GTR v CanAm on a track and ensure you get the trackday parts list (rose joint suspension, extra suspension bar etc). Take it from me you need aircon, highpowered SBC engines give out alot of heat, you may get away on an opentop but a hot day? I think it only adds around 25kg.
BTW I kept both the Ariel Atom and Ultima GTR; both are very good at what they do, how they look and their unique engine sounds
Tim
Storer said:
This is probably going to be controversial, but here goes!
If you want to do 80% trackdays I would go for something more Radical. The Ultima is a fantastic car but there will always be better cars for the track that are purpose built.
An Ultima (even the hair dressers one) is better than pretty much any other road car on the track but it is still a road car unless modified heavily to become a racer.
I used my GTR on the track and will do again when it is rebuilt, but it will always be a road car I can track (60 to 70% road). If you try a Radical or purpose built racer you will see the limitations of an Ultima on track.
I know I am probably going to shot down here but these are my opinions.
Paul
totally agree Paul.... the Ultima in standard form is comprimised on track, a Radical would run rings round a standard Ultima, you can make an Ultima very quick on track but it needs a few tweaks and a bit of investmentIf you want to do 80% trackdays I would go for something more Radical. The Ultima is a fantastic car but there will always be better cars for the track that are purpose built.
An Ultima (even the hair dressers one) is better than pretty much any other road car on the track but it is still a road car unless modified heavily to become a racer.
I used my GTR on the track and will do again when it is rebuilt, but it will always be a road car I can track (60 to 70% road). If you try a Radical or purpose built racer you will see the limitations of an Ultima on track.
I know I am probably going to shot down here but these are my opinions.
Paul
A/C is not needed in the GTR if you leave the windows out of the doors of make them removable. I dare say that the amount of hot air that comes into the cabin is less with this arrangement than a Can Am with the glass screen ( the fire wall prevents forward flow of air ).
The Ultima is a great track car. Get the rose joint suspension and an LS7 with a gearbox that is designed for a cable shifter.
Keep it very simple and enjoy it.
The Ultima is a great track car. Get the rose joint suspension and an LS7 with a gearbox that is designed for a cable shifter.
Keep it very simple and enjoy it.
Wow, thanks guys for your feedback.
a) will talk to the factory for comments on CanAm vs GTR for track usage as well as for recommended upgrades (may be even beyond the official options list)
b) Radical: Had been looking into that briefly. 2 issues coming to my mind: (1) needed to be a street legal version (SR3) to make sure I could attend any (!) track day and not just the "open" ones. I'm not sure there is a street legal version available in Germany. (2) My believe is that a Radical even would be more sensitive than the Ariel, but I'm looking for a more "forgiving" car (sounds strange when talking about an Ultima, no?): I definitely would not drive the Ariel at the Nordschleife, but I'm planning to do so with the Ultima.
c) Looks like air con is a must for both CanAm and GTR
Keep comments coming ... :-)
a) will talk to the factory for comments on CanAm vs GTR for track usage as well as for recommended upgrades (may be even beyond the official options list)
b) Radical: Had been looking into that briefly. 2 issues coming to my mind: (1) needed to be a street legal version (SR3) to make sure I could attend any (!) track day and not just the "open" ones. I'm not sure there is a street legal version available in Germany. (2) My believe is that a Radical even would be more sensitive than the Ariel, but I'm looking for a more "forgiving" car (sounds strange when talking about an Ultima, no?): I definitely would not drive the Ariel at the Nordschleife, but I'm planning to do so with the Ultima.
c) Looks like air con is a must for both CanAm and GTR
Keep comments coming ... :-)
Edited by Dierk on Wednesday 7th September 06:16
Yep. I looked at a Radical SR3. Fantastic trackday car with proper downforce and seriously quick, but ... its clearance would be a problem on public roads where I live in Glos, nowhere as cool looking on the open road as an Ariel/Ultima :-)) .... and checkout the engine maintenance required every 40 hours (bike engined ones)! Engine noise on radicals maybe a problem as well (last one I saw being noise tested was doing 105db but maybe he had removed the backbox/cat), whereas the Ariel is 95dbish and the Ultima LS7 is 97db with Ultima's exhaust. Again talk to Radical - they are very friendly and have recently done a euro type approved one.
Sounds like you need to test drive them both! Ted's (at Ultima) test drives are legendary :-D
Tim
Sounds like you need to test drive them both! Ted's (at Ultima) test drives are legendary :-D
Tim
To get the the Ultima to lap topgear circuit in 1m 13ish secs (1m 10ish on slicks)v 1m19sec in Radical SR3 you just need Ted to copy his current ultima GTR setup onto yours. Note the suspension bars are not recommended on the open road ... oh and grow a huge set of gonads - the various videos had me in a cold sweat just watching....
looks like the radicals have a front and rear underbody diffuser, as well as some form of linkage on the suspension to alter spring rate as it goes through travel/roll. Other than that the chassis seams fairly simlar in concept. Getting front donwforce to match rear tunnels will be the biggest issue.
May I refocus the thread to using the Ultima as a trackcar? Thanks, I'm aware of the Radicals. However, that's not the scope of my inquiry. I'm looking for a more neutral and forgiving car than my Ariel. That car must be street legal and I needed to understand how to correctly spec the Ultima. Thanks
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