Stretching/warmup

[sagt550]

Looks like I am getting to the age (35) where I can no longer get away with simply turning up at the gym, lifting a load of weight and then going home (or doing the equivalent for CV - i.e. putting on my trainers going for a 10k run and then just stopping).

I've heard about this warmup/stretching thing that sensible people do to avoid injury and was wondering where to start ?

I like to do a combination of CV and weights. Some nights both, some night just one or the other. I am aware that I am not the most flexible of people and have very tight hamstrings which (I think) seem to cause a lot of strange little injuries/shin splints/tweaks etc when running. In addition, I have been known to pick up a few injuries doing weights in my lower back along with other random tweaks here and there.

What would be a good starting point for the following

- Just going for a run : I guess some form of warmup/warm down is easy enough by simply jogging, but what about the stretches ? how many, how long for ? before or after ?

- Doing weights : Again, I can figure out a 5 minute a warmup on maybe a bike etc, but should I be strecthing before or after ? Am I neglecting core strength causing the weird back injuries.

Just to put this into perspective I'm not going for Ironman or any form of body building here, just want to avoid injury and see some reasonable gains in terms of fitness and muscle tone. I well aware of the techniques with regard to weight lifting, what exercises to do etc - its just the peripheral stuff that I think I am neglecting.

Hopefully thats enough info a the pistonheads collective to give me a few pointers!

[balders118]

Warm up before a run can be walk,jog, run for maybe 10 mins. Stop, and then go through some dynamic/ballistic lower body stretches, not classic static stretches. In this instance, static stretches will increase your risk of injury. This will help get your prepared for a good run. If you're only doing a casual run, rather than trying to beat your best 5k time I would go through some dynamic stretches to start, then gradually pick up your pace from a walk for your run if you dont want to do a 10 min warm up run first, this will be fine. after your run is when you go through a cycle of static stretches for all the muscles used (running you'll wanna do quads, hams, calves, hip flexors and gluetes!)

For weight the rower is a really good machine to warm up on. It gets the heart pumping, as well as all of your major joints going through a large range of motion. Do 2k, gradually picking the pace up throughout. If you don't use the rower often take it very easy to start as it's easy to go too fast too soon. Then go through dyanic stretches for all of the muscle groups that you plan on working on that session. Again, static strectes will leave you more prone to injury pre-workout, and in this intance can also dramtically reduce power thus inhibiting your workout. Once again you should use static stretches to stretch out, and improve your flexibility post weights, stretching out all the muscle groups used in your workout.

Post weights/run you'll probably also find it benefical to do 5-10 mins gently rowing/cycles as a cool down. This just gets the heart rate higher again, and helps the flow of blood to worked muscles and therefore aids clearing the waste products created during your workout. Doesn't have to be hard, just get your heart rate up again for 10 mins or so.

HTH

ETA a few bits I missed..

Static stretches hold for 20-30 seconds (boring I know!)

Dynamic strecthes 15-20 reps

Re: back... try adding 'lying with your front on the floor hyper extensions' into warm up and cool down, this can help reduce back pain, and help prevent injury. Keep your hips pushed into the floor, and with your hands in apress up position push your upper body up until your arms are straight. More core work will help your reduce risk of back injury, think of your core and lower back muscle as a corset for your spine, the stronger they are the more stable your back will be. This means you need a strong lower back too, so deadlifts are the order of the day. However, back pain can also be caused by poor form, so unless your 100% sure your form is, erm, 100% then get a buddy, or gym staff to check it for you. Be wary of gym staff though, many couldnt show you proper form themselves!

Edited by balders118 on Sunday 11th September 19:57

[goldblum]

Most people who I know don't stretch at all before a run,but will do at least 10 mins warm up easy jog etc first.Stretch after.

Again most weight lifters I know don't do any kind of full body warm up - just a couple of lighter sets then bang into the weight.Proper technique of course.

There's the scientifically correct way,then there's tried and tested methods that work for people in the gym.

Horses.

[balders118]

goldblum said:

Most people who I know don't stretch at all before a run,but will do at least 10 mins warm up easy jog etc first.Stretch after.

Again most weight lifters I know don't do any kind of full body warm up - just a couple of lighter sets then bang into the weight.Proper technique of course.

There's the scientifically correct way,then there's tried and tested methods that work for people in the gym.

Horses.

Lots of weightlifters I know deadlift with a bent back, don't squat to anywhere near parrallel and loads don't touch there chest on a bench press. Just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

As well as reducuing the risk of injury, warming up properly can really help improve your performance throughout the workout and for the sake of ten minutes why wouldn't you do it!

And the "scientifically correct way Vs. Tried and tested" doesn't make sense in this instance. It is scentifically proven, and tried and tested that a good warm up is benefical in every respect. Just because loads of gym users can't be bothered, and happen not to get injured doesn't mean it's tried and tested. A large percentage of people drive their cars too fast and get away with it for years. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, and you only have to look at the "show your crash pics" thread to see what can go wrong.

[goldblum]

balders118 said:

goldblum said:

Most people who I know don't stretch at all before a run,but will do at least 10 mins warm up easy jog etc first.Stretch after.

Again most weight lifters I know don't do any kind of full body warm up - just a couple of lighter sets then bang into the weight.Proper technique of course.

There's the scientifically correct way,then there's tried and tested methods that work for people in the gym.

Horses.

Lots of weightlifters I know deadlift with a bent back, don't squat to anywhere near parrallel and loads don't touch there chest on a bench press. Just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

As well as reducuing the risk of injury, warming up properly can really help improve your performance throughout the workout and for the sake of ten minutes why wouldn't you do it!

And the "scientifically correct way Vs. Tried and tested" doesn't make sense in this instance. It is scentifically proven, and tried and tested that a good warm up is benefical in every respect. Just because loads of gym users can't be bothered, and happen not to get injured doesn't mean it's tried and tested. A large percentage of people drive their cars too fast and get away with it for years. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, and you only have to look at the "show your crash pics" thread to see what can go wrong.

...for courses.

[balders118]

NeMiSiS said:

I don't warm up or stretch before a workout, neither do I warm down. I aim for maximum sustainable muscle damage so as to get maximum repair, with repair comes size and strength, as we all know.

I do sit in a hot Jacuzzi for half an hour after though.

So you think warming up/cooling down will reduce muscle gain?

For years I didn't warm up, cool down, or stretch. It was fine, up until a point where I got lots of little niggles. Pains in my shoulders, back issues due to tight hamstrings etc. 10 minutes before a workout, and 5 minutes stretching after makes my workout far more productive, increases my lifting ability in the workout, gets me in the right mindset to train hard and has ironed out little niggling injuries/pains I was having.

I don't see how anyone can argue that you shouldn't warm up pre workout!

[E21_Ross]

NeMiSiS said:

I don't warm up or stretch before a workout, neither do I warm down. I aim for maximum sustainable muscle damage so as to get maximum repair, with repair comes size and strength, as we all know.

I do sit in a hot Jacuzzi for half an hour after though.

certainly not the best thing you can do for yourself.

[didelydoo]

I start with the bar and work up in 40kg jumps (sets of 5) to my work sets with no rest, thats my warm up. Will somtimes have a stretch at the end, particularly if I've got a niggle starting.

[sinizter]

There was a recent study which showed that warmup only helped psychologically - not physically.

[balders118]

sinizter said:

There was a recent study which showed that warmup only helped psychologically - not physically.

.... link?

[Fittster]

balders118 said:

sinizter said:

There was a recent study which showed that warmup only helped psychologically - not physically.

.... link?

I recall an Australian paper that came to the conclusion that warming up didn't make any different. Shamefully I can only find a Daily Mail article at the moment.

Don't think this is the paper I remember reading but it's similar

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/stretc...

[DownUnder.]

As per Balders advice I decided to try a slow 2000m row to warm up tonight and I can say it definitely made a difference!
Could lift just as well and felt just as strong but everything felt more fluid and purposeful! Weird to explain but I definitely noticed a difference!

[Jimbo NW]

It's hard to explain, it felt harder and like I was working better. Could be a placebo, but if it worked... Why not? (P.s name change)

[sinizter]

balders118 said:

sinizter said:

There was a recent study which showed that warmup only helped psychologically - not physically.

.... link?

No idea of the original link I had seen, as it is of no interest to me - I don't warm up before exercise or even stretch and it has never been a problem.

This is the best I could find right now -> http://lifehacker.com/5832408/warming-up-before-ex...

[E21_Ross]

NeMiSiS said:

Only one person in the world knows how my body responds best in the gym, and that is me, you can listen to as many people as you like, read as many books as you like but at the end of it all only you will know best for you.

but generally, muscles are muscles, fascia is fascia, ligaments and tendons are ligaments and tendons; physiology is physiology.

warming up prior to something that causes massive work loads on muscles does decrease the chances for injury.

once you have learned muscle and fascia physiology then come back and say that stretching and warming up will only have benefits on certain people.

it also depends largely on the activity you're going to do. with activities which cause muscles to be stretched quite a lot the benefits are more pronounced (e.g. 110m hurdles!) as opposed to something like going for a light jog.

you try doing 110m flat out hurdles without warming up and tell me if it's no different than with a good warm up. muscles generate heat and fascia etc becomes more pliable with heat so less prone to damage from over-stretching etc.

the list of benefits is huge and can't be bothered to explain them all. stretching post work out, in theory, should reduce the likelihood of developing trigger points and faulty firing patterns due to chronically hypertonic muscles too as well as preventing compensatory movements.

Edited by E21_Ross on Monday 12th September 19:16

[balders118]

Fittster said:

I recall an Australian paper that came to the conclusion that warming up didn't make any different. Shamefully I can only find a Daily Mail article at the moment.

Don't think this is the paper I remember reading but it's similar

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/stretc...

That just shows relative to injury, not the other benefits of warming up. It's also not published in a peer critiqued journal, so anything can get published like that

NeMiSiS said:

DownUnder. said:

As per Balders advice I decided to try a slow 2000m row to warm up tonight and I can say it definitely made a difference!
Could lift just as well and felt just as strong but everything felt more fluid and purposeful! Weird to explain but I definitely noticed a difference!

Placebo effect.

I'm starting to think you're delibratly "trolling" here, just to wind people who train properly up!

The feeling that downunder. has described is exactly how a decent warm up can improve your workout. I'm not going to discuss this anymore, because it's making me cross.

[E21_Ross]

NeMiSiS said:

Just to reiterate what I said, for the hard of thinking.

Quote: I don't warm up or stretch before a workout, neither do I warm down. I aim for maximum sustainable muscle damage so as to get maximum repair, with repair comes size and strength, as we all know.

I do sit in a hot Jacuzzi for half an hour after though.

Me, Me, me...

in general though, unless doing something where muscles are being stretched or are required to maximally contract very powerfully over a very short space of time (e.g. high jump) then warming up isn't as important as cooling down.

in your case warming up may not be beneficial, but doing something very easy to those muscle groups you work after a hard work out, along with some stretching WILL be beneficial over a long period of time.... after all, if a muscle is chronically tight and hypertonic, the law of reciprocal inhibition means that that muscles (or muscle groups) antagonist will be weaker than it ought to be. a tighter muscle is also less efficient so, even though you are causing increased repair etc...you're still weaker than you could be (again, depending on what activity you do)....ya little weakling

[didelydoo]

I'd not like to try a max squat without building up to it. The shock of the weight would make me st myself (literally)

[E21_Ross]

NeMiSiS said:

Do you warm up people warm up longer in colder conditions, and less in hotter conditions ?

yes, or at least start off more gently when it's colder. when it's cold all your fascia, connective tissues etc are far less pliable and are far more prone to tearing. this is partly why you generally feel stiffer if trying stretches when it's really cold outside. when you exercises muscles also generate heat (as well as movement, of course) which makes everything a little more pliable and flexible.

another reason is that when it's really cold outside more blood is re-directed to the core, and less to the muscles, so when it's very cold and you're training outside, when you first set off you're really quite inefficient too and, in theory, create more lactic acid because you'll be working more anaerobically (though this may be minimal)

[RemainAllHoof]

Re the Australian research, it mentioned that stretching before training reduced power by up to 10%. This research was carried out with a small group of karate black belts. I understand that to improve recovery times, stretching should be done after training and not before... but I wouldn't bother telling anyone you see stretching before... just isn't worth the hassle.

NeMiSiS said:

Your dead right, we don't want any prolapsed bowls now do we, but there is a HUGE difference between warming up and pyramiding to a PB or heavy weight.

In my books, pyramiding is pretty much warming up - you're preparing the body for the heavier weight by working lighter weights. As you know, I climb and apart from rotating joints, I also do easy routes (routes that are pretty much ladders and aimed at kids just so the pressure is applied gently to the ligaments at the start of a session) to get the body ready before doing the crazy stuff; same principle as pyramiding that body builders do. If I hang off two fingers from cold, I'll pop something (and indeed I did when I was showing off ). One thing I have noticed is that I do generally end up injuring the parts of the body that I have forgotten to rotate/swing/wiggle before climbing so I try to make sure I do a top-down approach starting at fingers, through arms, down body to feet.

Edited by RemainAllHoof on Wednesday 21st September 12:33