Controlling the spark curve electronically?

[TVR Beaver]

So I have my 14CUX set up now and I like the way it’s performing… I also like the fact that I’m on the 14CUX to keep the car as original as possible…

But I also realise that great gains can be made by controlling the spark with some electronic gizmo instead of the mechanical advance mechanisms….

So two questions really…
can I get a programmable gizmo that would work with the dizzy but allow me to map the spark curve at all?...
Or if not, and I went for coil packs, what’s the best unit to work with the 14CUX…

I know your all going to say ‘Bin the 14CUX’… and ‘go mega-something or other’…. But can I do it with the existing set up?.. Option 1 to retain the dizzy distribution to the HT leads preferred??

[900T-R]

Talk to Mark Adams about the Omex 200.

[TVR Beaver]

Have mailed Mark already.. but he's not replied yet... I was guessing that would be his thoughts... Will have a look see how much they are.... Although I'm sure some must be around second hand now??

[900T-R]

I'd give Mark a ring - I might have been lucky so far but he's always been very liberal with his time so far.

IIRC the Omex itself is <400 squid brand new, the cost of the wiring loom on top of that is dependant on whether you make one yourself, want a half-finished loom or a tailored one.

I would first establish however, what how much is to gain from better ignition timing control in your specific case, and how this aligns with your goals - with my engine the timing from the distributor was pretty much spot on at the higher end of the rpm band and significant gains would only be possible at the low end, which is not a real priority for me. Also, having a baseline RR graph would be nice to have to compare the 'after' with...

I'd say you are thinking along the right lines though - if there are any significant gains to be made from better engine management control, they'll be on the spark side rather than fueling.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 12th September 16:07

[TVR Beaver]

Indeed.. Mark has set the car up and it's doing 262 at the wheels.. but it was pinking at the top end a tad, so my timing was changed from 30 deg to 25 deg... this makes great power at the mid range and top end.. but does rob the 1500 / 2500 band a bit... not that it matters as when you get into the 3K band and up.. it's flying... and TBH, it does stop you spinning the wheels low down a lot... But I did wonder how much better it might be by controling the spark also?..
I only mailed Mark at lunch time... so I'm sure he'll be back soon....
You have to ask if its worth £400 plus to get the very low down torque back?.. TBH I'm more than happy with the way the cars going now.. but alway curious

Here is the graph:-

Edited by TVR Beaver on Monday 12th September 16:44

[spend]

123 Ignition? The smart(?) programmable dizzy.

[TVR Beaver]

spend said:

123 Ignition? The smart(?) programmable dizzy.

Thoes are interesting (although the same price).. and is it programmable?.. it says they have 16 pre-set curves?.. will have a look on a few more sites n get the full spec... wonder if anyone is running one??

[daxtojeiro]

900T-R said:

IIRC the Omex itself is <400 squid brand new, the cost of the wiring loom on top of that is dependant on whether you make one yourself, want a half-finished loom or a tailored one.

Blimey thats expensive!! You can have a proper ECU with fuel and proper wasted spark ignition control for that sort of money. Being able to map them together is so much better as they work hand in hand, not seperately!

I've just looked at the Omex and its still using a distributor! Come on, surely if your going to upgrade anything you want it upgraded not simply replaced with something like you already have?!?!

A distributor uses a single coil. A coil needs 3-4mS dwell time to fully charge and approx 1.0mS to discharge (Spark), this means that at engine speeds over approx 3000rpm (on a V8 engine) there simply isnt time to fully charge the coil. So your losing spark power over 3000rpm, imagine what its like at 6000rpm!
Where as a wasted spark setup would have 4 x the time between sparks so it wouldnt run out of time untill around 12000rpm,

Phil

Edited by daxtojeiro on Monday 12th September 20:45

[SILICONEKID340HP]

spend said:

123 Ignition? The smart(?) programmable dizzy.

123 is just a universal dizzy ,I had one on my MGB..

Skip the lot or stick it on Ebay and go Megasquirt..

My motor is 340hp and a recent cruise to Harewood house returned me 30.1mpg.60 70 and 80mph.So i reckon another 4 or 5mpg with the 4l...

Pity the propshaft let me down

Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Monday 12th September 21:39

[TVR Beaver]

daxtojeiro said:

Blimey thats expensive!! You can have a proper ECU with fuel and proper wasted spark ignition control for that sort of money. Being able to map them together is so much better as they work hand in hand, not seperately!

I've just looked at the Omex and its still using a distributor! Come on, surely if your going to upgrade anything you want it upgraded not simply replaced with something like you already have?!?!

A distributor uses a single coil. A coil needs 3-4mS dwell time to fully charge and approx 1.0mS to discharge (Spark), this means that at engine speeds over approx 3000rpm (on a V8 engine) there simply isnt time to fully charge the coil. So your losing spark power over 3000rpm, imagine what its like at 6000rpm!
Where as a wasted spark setup would have 4 x the time between sparks so it wouldnt run out of time untill around 12000rpm,

Phil

Edited by daxtojeiro on Monday 12th September 20:45

yes, I know about the MS's... but didn't want to go too far with changing the original look of the car / engine... I also didn't know the Omex cost and for £400 I'll not be rushing there anyway as on top of this, the full lot would need re-setting up?... Mind you, if I came accross a second hand Omex 200 for £150 or so.. I may be tempted

Edited by TVR Beaver on Tuesday 13th September 08:01

[TVR Beaver]

SILICONEKID340HP said:

123 is just a universal dizzy ,I had one on my MGB..

Daz.. Did it have the 16 curves in it and did you try switch between them?.. or was yours just a replacement for the std..

[SILICONEKID340HP]

I got a kit from EFI EXTRAS except the wide band lambdas..it came with the ECU with a base map ,trigger wheel and pick up , air temp sensor,wireing loom,coil packs used but tested ,leads used but tested all still running spot on.. Sold my old magnacore leads,dizzy ,Mark Adams chip with the ECU,AFM etc etc and got about half the cost back...

Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Monday 12th September 21:51

[SILICONEKID340HP]

TVR Beaver said:

Daz.. Did it have the 16 curves in it and did you try switch between them?.. or was yours just a replacement for the std..

Mine was a 123 setup on my B ,set up on a rolling road works rearly well with carbs but there still dated..Move on or stay with what you have ..You can adjust the Megasquirt with any mod ,your stuck with the 14cux..

[TVR Beaver]

SILICONEKID340HP said:

I got a kit from EFI EXTRAS except the wide band lambdas..it came with the ECU with a base map ,trigger wheel and pick up , air temp sensor,wireing loom,coil packs used but tested ,leads used but tested all still running spot on.. Sold my old magnacore leads,dizzy ,Mark Adams chip with the ECU,AFM etc etc and got about half the cost back...

Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Monday 12th September 21:51

No.. No..No.... did the 123 thing you had have the 16 map's... I know you've gone squirty with your Stealth cam etc.... I was going to ask for a look at Harewood last weekend but didn't see you... Hope you've solved your knocking problem BTW... I had a Stag once sounded like that.. teeth missing off the crown wheel and it had come loose... Hope yours isn't and its just a CV or something!!

Edited by TVR Beaver on Monday 12th September 22:04

[SILICONEKID340HP]

[quote=TVR Beaver]

No.. No..No.... did the 123 thing you had have the 16 map's... I know you've gone squirty with your Stealth cam etc.... I was going to ask for a look at Harewood last weekend but didn't see you... Hope you've solved your knocking problem BTW... I had a Stag once sounded like that.. teeth missing off the crown wheel and it had come loose... Hope yours isn't and its just a CV or something!!



Im not sure mate i thought each setting 1 to 16 just advances it slightly

Peter Burgess can help you, top bloke ..123Tune programmeable distributors now in stock this guy has time for you just mention me Daz wih the Black roadster
http://www.peter-burgess.com/

[spend]

2 Maps with 16 programmable load sites (rpm points which you can interpolate the advance in between) as I understand it, I've only been quickly shown them at Pete's.

[TVR Beaver]

Ok.. 16 sites (or points) on 2 curves... get it now... that sounds quite good then.. but still too expensive! .. but a good way to do it for sure?... minimal changes etc...

[Mark Adams]

Phil - I am constantly amazed that the moderators of this site never act to stamp out your blatant self-promotion and brazen free advertising of your own products. I for one am sick of it. Every time someone dares to mention that they like their 14CUX and are getting good results with it you are there to shoot it down.

Shame on you.

As a professional you will never find me or any of the other traders here acting in the same way when someone is discussing going towards an aftermarket system, because it hampers free discussion when traders wade in with heavy-handed propaganda in favour of their own solutions. Grow up and wind your neck in. This isn't the first time I've had to pull you up.

Let's examine your argument shall we?

daxtojeiro said:

Blimey thats expensive!! You can have a proper ECU with fuel and proper wasted spark ignition control for that sort of money. Being able to map them together is so much better as they work hand in hand, not seperately!

Maybe it costs more because it has full European Type Approval, is produced to full ISO 9001 quality standards of traceability, has full product liability insurance, full product support, is fully legal for fitment to road-going vehicles, and won't invalidate your insurance either now or in future.

Is it possible for your customers to purchase one of your units without reading this page on your website?

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/terms.htm

To quote your own words - "These ECU's have no EU approval or any other type of approval and are therefore meant for track use or off road use only."

The Engine Management system is classed as a safety critical system and requires European Type Approval, although this is not currently enforced. See the following link:

http://www.conformance.co.uk/directives/ce_autoemc...
http://www.vca.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/system-compo...

daxtojeiro said:

You can have a proper ECU with fuel and proper wasted spark ignition control for that sort of money. Being able to map them together is so much better as they work hand in hand, not seperately!

A 14CUX (which is a proper ECU) teamed with a suitable ignition system such as an Omex 200 (or even a MegaJolt) work hand-in-hand together, so this is a non-argument. Teaming with a Type-Approved Omex system will maintain full legal compliance.

daxtojeiro said:

I've just looked at the Omex and its still using a distributor! Come on, surely if your going to upgrade anything you want it upgraded not simply replaced with something like you already have?!?!

Distributors are ok as long as they are not in charge of the timing, and there are very good gains to be had from mapped ignition. If you bothered to read the original post before launching into the sales pitch, you would see that the OP would like his vehicle to remain looking standard.

daxtojeiro said:

A distributor uses a single coil. A coil needs 3-4mS dwell time to fully charge and approx 1.0mS to discharge (Spark), this means that at engine speeds over approx 3000rpm (on a V8 engine) there simply isnt time to fully charge the coil. So your losing spark power over 3000rpm, imagine what its like at 6000rpm!
Where as a wasted spark setup would have 4 x the time between sparks so it wouldnt run out of time untill around 12000rpm,

12000 RPM will be really useful on a Rover V8. Out of interest the same amplifier and coil is used on Jaguar V12 race engines running at 8000RPM perfectly successfully. The type of coil used in a DIS system is entirely different to a coil designed for a distributor system. These type of coils actually require less charging time after 3000 RPM, due to the amount of energy that remains in the core and the way the field collapses. Coil charging time is not a constant, and is heavily dependent on speed and voltage. Again if you bothered to research the subject before spouting forth, you would know this.

In any case I do have a small number of customers who have gone from a 14CUX, Bosch AFM, Bosch Injectors, and Omex Ignition setup to either an Omex710 or other system, and found absolutely no difference in the power output or delivery. I have also seen some horrific DIY EFI installations that have easily wiped £1-2K off the value of the car at a stroke - and I certainly wouldn't let a shabby one through the door.

Edited by Mark Adams on Monday 12th September 23:19

[daxtojeiro]

Mark Adams said:

Phil - I am constantly amazed that the moderators of this site never act to stamp out your blatant self-promotion and brazen free advertising of your own products. I for one am sick of it. Every time someone dares to mention that they like their 14CUX and are getting good results with it you are there to shoot it down.

Shame on you.

Edited by Mark Adams on Monday 12th September 23:19

Mark,
I guess the moderators read my post and could see that I didnt slate any product or indeed promote any of mine. I can't see any reference to MegaSquirt (dare I use that word!?) or my site or indeed anything to do with anything I sell. Sorry if youve miss read it but I would suggest that you are the one blatently promoting your products and slating my products. As you have said, thats increadably unprofessional and I hope you have time to re-read the whole post and change it in line with your comments!
Infact the last few posts you have made are to attack the replies I have written.


If stating that a distributor using a single coil isnt a good upgrade for the cost when you could have wasted spark, and fuel control, etc for the same, then I can only appolagise to the moderators and the users of this forum. I had a feeling that was the point of a forum, discussing upgrades as well as reasons good and bad for other possible solutions?? Maybe I have it wrong?
Personally, if I had £400 to spend and wasnt told that I could have a fully functioning ECU with all the bells and whistles, then I would have been upset and wondered why I put my proposed upgrade on a forum when no one sugggested a better cheaper solution.

I've probably done as much if not more research into coils and drivers than you have and I know that there's nothing special about a distributors coil. We started with controlling them years ago and I know that any dwell time below 3.0mS to 4.0mS (depending on the coil) will not saturate it and you will, therefore, not get the full energy from the coil with any less than that.
Of course engines with more cylinders can run at a good speed using a distributor, I didnt suggest they couldn't, but imagine if they could have moved into the 21st century along with us all and had access to wasted spark. Do you seriously think they would still have a dizzy? How many OEMs use a distributor today, or in the last 10-15 years come to that?

Anyhow, maybe we can all play nicely as theres plenty of people who want to have a modern setup on their engine's,
thanks
Phil

Edited by daxtojeiro on Tuesday 13th September 07:10

[TVR Beaver]

Blimey!.. Didn’t wont to start WW3 here!

But it was reading the page on the MS site that put me off changing from the 14CUX… At the time I mentioned it to the insurance company who said ‘it could be a way out of not paying a claim’ if it came to it… and as Mark is pointing out, European legislation on these things is tending to build so didn’t want to install something that may be a problem longer term….
Anyway, look’s like I got my answer.. Omex will work alongside the existing ECU…. Just need to see some results now… and see if I can justify the cost?.. Or find a second hand one for sale