996 GT2 my initial thoughts

[wini]

Hi I viewed a 996 GT2 recently and when I test drove the car I was suprised at how refined it felt compaired to what I was lead to believe from articles and numerous posts I'd read. Yes the clutch,suspension was firm but the car drove smoothly and I never had to work hard at the wheel or controls,it felt much more refined than I was lead to believe.
I left feeling what a beautiful well thought out and lovely built fast road/trackday car.
The GT2 felt very very special. I've had a 965 Turbo,993TT,964 3.6,M3's,EVO 8. I've driven a 996GT3 and been around a circuit in a 996GT3 RS(Very nice),but the GT2 felt in a different class all together even allowing for the extra cost.
Just goes to show it's all down to personal opion. Talking about opion's what's everyones favorite colour in a 99GT2?

[Slippydiff]

wini said:

Hi I viewed a 996 GT2 recently and when I test drove the car I was suprised at how refined it felt compaired to what I was lead to believe from articles and numerous posts I'd read. Yes the clutch,suspension was firm but the car drove smoothly and I never had to work hard at the wheel or controls,it felt much more refined than I was lead to believe.
I left feeling what a beautiful well thought out and lovely built fast road/trackday car.
The GT2 felt very very special. I've had a 965 Turbo,993TT,964 3.6,M3's,EVO 8. I've driven a 996GT3 and been around a circuit in a 996GT3 RS(Very nice),but the GT2 felt in a different class all together even allowing for the extra cost.
Just goes to show it's all down to personal opion. Talking about opion's what's everyones favorite colour in a 99GT2?

I don't recall reading any articles or posts on here saying the GT2 was unrefined. To what aspect of the car are you referring ?

Without casting aspersions on your driving ability, there are test drives, and there's driving a car when you both own it and know it. What you glean from the former will be very different to the latter.

Basalt black is clearly the best colour

[jackal]

I felt the same way and was also expecting something a lot harsher and recalcitrant. To me they feel fairly well judged and as a road car compare favourably to the 996gt3. I found the damping & spring rates pretty generous. Clutch aside everything is nice and light and for a tintop the whole car feels pretty featherweight and inertia free. Gotta love that 3rd gear rush as well

That said, i never got the chance to sling one down some really bumpy stuff and dont know how it would fare on those sorts of roads.

Edited by jackal on Saturday 17th September 00:53

[_gez_]

So which one did you view?

[Crimp a Length!]

They are a great car and the OP is spot on with the way the cars are.
They are a pussy cat which basically changes into wild tiger when provoked.

I find the clutch & gearbox really good very mechanical and totally different from the way they feel in a 996 turbo.

You do have to treat with so much respect though as sometimes you forget the lack of driver aids etc, mine subtly reminded me the other day about it with a right hook, yes a bit of quick opposite lock and skid marks on the seat aswell as the road!!

Awesome.

[JamieG]

Some interesting comments, most of which I totally agree with. Coming from a mk1GT3, the 2 was no- where near as delicate (although still felt less cumbersome than the C4S) but when you wound up those turbos.. My god, you can keep delicate, I'll have sledgehammer-wallop any day!! All IMHO.
Ps Arctic is best colour.

[Dan7357]

JamieG said:

Some interesting comments, most of which I totally agree with. Coming from a mk1GT3, the 2 was no- where near as delicate (although still felt less cumbersome than the C4S) but when you wound up those turbos.. My god, you can keep delicate, I'll have sledgehammer-wallop any day!! All IMHO.
Ps Arctic is best colour.

I have found myself looking at the 996 GT2's, as you will be coming from a MK1 GT3.

Am I right in thinking the MK1 GT3 will feel a raw car -v- the GT2 a light but very quick car?

I have driven a 996 Turbo, but felt a little lost, no real feel of what the car is doing and a heavy car too. (but driven on the road, and not being mine at road speeds)

[JamieG]

Dan,I think you're spot on - GT3 felt more raw and as Slippydiff on here has explained, the driving experience of the '2 is dominated by the motor. I've never driven a 96turbo so can't comment on your experience but would recommend a blast in a '2 to see what we are all harping on about.

[Slippydiff]

Dan7357 said:

I have found myself looking at the 996 GT2's, as you will be coming from a MK1 GT3.

Am I right in thinking the MK1 GT3 will feel a raw car -v- the GT2 a light but very quick car?

I have driven a 996 Turbo, but felt a little lost, no real feel of what the car is doing and a heavy car too. (but driven on the road, and not being mine at road speeds)

I'm fortunate to have a Mk1 GT3 and a GT2. All my views are based solely on road usage.

On the contrary, the extra weight of the GT2s turbocharged engine can be felt. The GT3 feels like a scalpel (it's an old cliche, but it's a good one in this instance) the GT2 more of a meat cleaver. Don't get me wrong, the GT2 is still agile when compared to a 996 Turbo, but a GT3 it isn't.

The extra weight (I imagine quite a bit of it unsprung) and larger tyres all conspire to dull the responses slightly when compared to the GT3.

The GT3 when driven quickly, flows, the GT2 driving experience is dominated by the massive straight line speed and then having to slow the car for the next corner. The GT3 feels more balanced and allows you to get back on the power earlier without the worry of the GT2s turbos grunt unsettling/unsticking the rear end or (depending on your set up) making the front end wash out slightly(personally I'd rather a hint of understeer and deal with that rather than deal with arm fulls of oversteer)

Lots on here will hate me for saying as much, but the GT3 is the purer driving experience, the engine , chassis, steering, brakes and transmission all gel with each other perfectly, the GT2s do a pretty good job, but that engine can (and frequently does) dominate the driving experience.

I'd seriously question whether my GT2 carries anymore corner speed over the GT3. Theoretically it should, it does after all have wider tyres, but it's greater mass and less linear power delivery make it less wieldy and user friendly in my opinion. However, whatever you lose around the corners, you can be sure you'll make up down the straights in the GT2 !

Whilst the extra 60-80hp my car has from having its exhaust upgraded and a remap, I'm not convinced it makes the car any quicker anywhere other than in a straight line. Sure, the boost comes in harder and lower down the rev range and it's less laggy and as a result it's definitely made the car easier to drive and more driveable, but quicker through the twisties ? hmmmm, probably not.

Unfortunately I had to cancel my damper testing/adjusting session at Fearnsport on Thursday. But once we've had the chance to play with the dampers and ARBs I'm hoping the car will be closer to the GT3 in it's steering and chassis responses.

[monthefish]

Slippydiff said:

Basalt black is clearly the best colour

[Steve Rance]

It is fascinating how two cars with a similar chasis spec require reasonably different driving styles. Having now driven several GT2's I must say that I've warmed to them considerably and am a little dumfounded as to why they are so undervalued. If you carry a tad less speed to to the apex than a GT3 and ensure that you are on boost after apex they are a delight to drive and not at all the widow maker that many proclaim them to be. From a pure driving prospect I would favour one over any 997GT car 4.0 included.

[jackal]

Steve Rance said:

It is fascinating how two cars with a similar chasis spec require reasonably different driving styles. Having now driven several GT2's I must say that I've warmed to them considerably and am a little dumfounded as to why they are so undervalued. If you carry a tad less speed to to the apex than a GT3 and ensure that you are on boost after apex they are a delight to drive and not at all the widow maker that many proclaim them to be. From a pure driving prospect I would favour one over any 997GT car 4.0 included.

agreed, cant get on with the 97GT cars personally

[Steve Rance]

Such a shame. I think that we can only expect partially involving GT cars from Porsche from now on. The quest for lap times at the ring require that modern cars primary correction inputs are becoming electronic rather than human. Turn off the traction or active aids on most cars and rely on the driver and I suspect that you would get a lot of dead drivers. These cars have far too much potential for the average driver to harness safely. A good friend has just picked up a new 4.0RS. 'Great car but nowhere near as pure a driving experience than my 996RS'. Pity but not surprising

[wini]

Hi Steve, What advice would you give to someone coming out of a turbo into a GT2? Also how have you found the standard suspension/power compaired to aftermarket suspension and higher power set up's?

Any advice would be great.

[Steve Rance]

You can drive a turbo like any sports car and the front diff will get you out of trouble. Being 2wd the GT2 requires a classic 911 driving style. Ie load the nose to the apex and deploy power at the apex. Don't touch the throttle after braking until the car is rotated at the apex and then be very smith and progressive with the throttle. If you go into oversteer do not lift, just keep a constant throttle a bot of opposite lock and unwind immediately grip returns. The golden rule is NEVER touch the throttle unless you are either in a straight line or unwinding the steering.

In terms of set ups and after Market, others on this forum have lots of experience in this area. I know that Guy took his 996GT2 to a fair state of chasis tune. Generally you don't run the rear too stiff as this will compromise traction. This will probably have a knock on to the front. I'd probably opt for a softish spring damper combination with decent adjustable rebound option so a 4 way adjustable damper would be my preference.

Good luck and have fun

[Slippydiff]

Steve Rance said:

It is fascinating how two cars with a similar chasis spec require reasonably different driving styles. Having now driven several GT2's I must say that I've warmed to them considerably and am a little dumfounded as to why they are so undervalued. If you carry a tad less speed to to the apex than a GT3 and ensure that you are on boost after apex they are a delight to drive and not at all the widow maker that many proclaim them to be. From a pure driving prospect I would favour one over any 997GT car 4.0 included.

Spot on Steve, but with confidence the GT2 can almost be driven like a N/A GT3. I find using a gear lower than I would in the N/A car (to keep the engine revs and thus boost up) makes the car a lot more predictable and manageable.

I'd got used to the previous Parr geometry set up on the car (lots of negative camber) and could hustle the car fairly easily. Now with the new dampers, less camber and a front end that doesn't have much initial roll on turn in, I'm struggling to feel what's going on between the tyre and the tarmac. As a result I have less confidence to commit to getting back on the power when required. That's when the car starts to feel less manageable (and capable of biting back)

[Pork_n_Beem]

Slippydiff said:

Spot on Steve, but with confidence the GT2 can almost be driven like a N/A GT3. I find using a gear lower than I would in the N/A car (to keep the engine revs and thus boost up) makes the car a lot more predictable and manageable.

I'd got used to the previous Parr geometry set up on the car (lots of negative camber) and could hustle the car fairly easily. Now with the new dampers, less camber and a front end that doesn't have much initial roll on turn in, I'm struggling to feel what's going on between the tyre and the tarmac. As a result I have less confidence to commit to getting back on the power when required. That's when the car starts to feel less manageable (and capable of biting back)

Slippy, i used to use a different technique to corner, basically i did not like the wait to get on the power as it posed the most vulnerable time when oversteer caused by the weight of the engine would come into play and then you are chasing after the backend without having throttle control. I would use a higher gear and balance the car just off-boost so i usually had about 10% throttle or just enough to keep things balanced and a little extra weight tranfered back because i was on throttle, albeit just a little, i was on std springs so this did work well and power on understeer had been dialed out.
Then the difficult bit is bringing on the boost whilst the corner is finishing, this i had to do by modulating the throttle. i am sure a re-map could have even dialed that out and made it easier to bring on the power whilst still cornering.
Anyway just a thought.

[Slippydiff]

Pork_n_Beem said:

Slippy, i used to use a different technique to corner, basically i did not like the wait to get on the power as it posed the most vulnerable time when oversteer caused by the weight of the engine would come into play and then you are chasing after the backend without having throttle control. I would use a higher gear and balance the car just off-boost so i usually had about 10% throttle or just enough to keep things balanced and a little extra weight tranfered back because i was on throttle, albeit just a little, i was on std springs so this did work well and power on understeer had been dialed out.
Then the difficult bit is bringing on the boost whilst the corner is finishing, this i had to do by modulating the throttle. i am sure a re-map could have even dialed that out and made it easier to bring on the power whilst still cornering.
Anyway just a thought.

Hi Ciro,

As you've mentioned, the standard mapping isn't particularly progressive, so it makes the job of metering the power (and specifically the onset of boost) more tricky. I've struggled with that in the past, so I now tend to overcome it by having the revs/boost higher by using a lower gear.
Funnily enough I prefer the hint of power on understeer, with confidence you can drive through it and keep things nicely balanced knowing theres no further spikes of boost/power to catch you out !

Also, one mustn't forget you rally boy like armfuls of oversteer . . . ! !

2mins 41 secs . . . .

http://vimeo.com/10122592

How's the racing going ?

[jackal]

Steve Rance said:

Such a shame. I think that we can only expect partially involving GT cars from Porsche from now on. The quest for lap times at the ring require that modern cars primary correction inputs are becoming electronic rather than human. Turn off the traction or active aids on most cars and rely on the driver and I suspect that you would get a lot of dead drivers. These cars have far too much potential for the average driver to harness safely. A good friend has just picked up a new 4.0RS. 'Great car but nowhere near as pure a driving experience than my 996RS'. Pity but not surprising

One of my main gripes is the general overall perceived feel of them the moment you head off ... through the chassis, your bum and of course the wheel. They feel polished, rounded, slightly bulbous and 'brick' like. On one level it is a sensation that people will rightly take for modernity and an accomplished, well built and polished car but to me it feels one removed and slightly generic. A 996gt3 feels deliciously homespun and hobbyist by comparison, and your body feels much more directly keyed into the physical-ness of the car. The aircooled cars of course take this several stages further though and reach a level of visceral engagement and mechanical character that truly is one of a kind.

[Pork_n_Beem]

Slippydiff said:

Hi Ciro,

As you've mentioned, the standard mapping isn't particularly progressive, so it makes the job of metering the power (and specifically the onset of boost) more tricky. I've struggled with that in the past, so I now tend to overcome it by having the revs/boost higher by using a lower gear.
Funnily enough I prefer the hint of power on understeer, with confidence you can drive through it and keep things nicely balanced knowing theres no further spikes of boost/power to catch you out !

Also, one mustn't forget you rally boy like armfuls of oversteer . . . ! !

2mins 41 secs . . . .

http://vimeo.com/10122592

How's the racing going ?

ahh, well you have heard of the exception to prove the rule etc etc, well on that particular corner which is normally 3rd, i did drop down to 2nd because i lost speed overtaking - TBH i just booted it for a laugh
Racing - well both cars i am racing are turbos, golf TDi engine in a funcup and scooby engine in a Saker, Funcup is even harder than a GT2 to bring the power in -eek I,m back at Oulton next month in the funcup should be a hoot.