More windfarm nonsense. Licence to print money

[johnfm]

Unbelievable. Really.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/...

Why would any normal thinking business pay ten times more than lost revenue?

How do complete morons get jobs with any decision making power at National Grid?

[Magic Merlin]

Electricity can not be stored, if supply outstrips demand then you have to reduce supply. OFGEM set the rules for the market to promote efficiency through virtual competition. National Grid are obliged to tender for supply interruption, they will always go for the lowest cost option first, but if this is not sufficient then they have to move further up the list.

[davepoth]

Magic Merlin said:

Electricity can not be stored, if supply outstrips demand then you have to reduce supply. OFGEM set the rules for the market to promote efficiency through virtual competition. National Grid are obliged to tender for supply interruption, they will always go for the lowest cost option first, but if this is not sufficient then they have to move further up the list.

And by being "easily turn off-and-on-able" wind farms do have quite an advantage; you don't want to have to shut down a nuclear reactor twice a day.

[Steffan]

I am sure you are right this is not an easy equation to balance.

But with energy costs rising and the energy cost floor being raised by the Government as a matter of policy and taxation, in an Eco friendly approach, the average consumer is in for one hell of a ride.

I can see energy costs doubling over the next three to five years above the current stratospheric prices.

It is not difficult to see the consequences to the consumer in an economy (the UK) where wages are unlikely to rise at all, unemployment is soaring, massive public sector redundancies are upon us and the population is aging rapidly.

It is NOT LOOKING GOOD.

I can see major unrest ahead. (And behind!!!)

[Magic Merlin]

The cost for the construction of numerous gas fired power stations will need to absorbed into the consumer price as well. These power stations are able to "fire up" relativley quickly and so will be essential when the wind drops and demand can not be met.

[johnfm]

suppliers setting a price for non-upply of £999 is clearly gaming the system.

The article also highlights the stupidity of this and previous governments - why are we subsidising foreign owned companies £523 mio to generate electricity.

Typical bonkers from the 'spending other people's money' political class.

[twister]

Magic Merlin said:

Electricity can not be stored, if supply outstrips demand then you have to reduce supply.

Has Dinorwig been decomissioned, or does it just not do what it says on the tin?

[Mojocvh]

Floaters. Deep water floaters.

http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/2128/floa...

http://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/publikationen...

Edited by Mojocvh on Sunday 18th September 16:16

[Mojocvh]

johnfm said:

Unbelievable. Really.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/...

Why would any normal thinking business pay ten times more than lost revenue?

How do complete morons get jobs with any decision making power at National Grid?

Actually I agree when you are talking about those small <10 turbine sets.

[Magic Merlin]

twister said:

Has Dinorwig been decomissioned, or does it just not do what it says on the tin?

It stores potential energy, not electricity.....

[twister]

Magic Merlin said:

It stores potential energy, not electricity.....

Potential energy which can be readily converted back into electrical energy. Dinorwig might not actually be a store of electricity energy, but from the perspective of the grid, does it not behave as one - you put electricity in and, at some later point in time, you get electricity back out...

[thinfourth2]

johnfm said:

Unbelievable. Really.

No

Not even vaguely surprising.

[phumy]

Magic Merlin said:

The cost for the construction of numerous gas fired power stations will need to absorbed into the consumer price as well. These power stations are able to "fire up" relativley quickly and so will be essential when the wind drops and demand can not be met.

There is a thing called "spinning reserve", this is when a generator or power plant is called to synch with the grid but is not used at its full capacity, lets say its running at only 60% of its full load and there maybe a few of these all over the country. So when there is a large disturbance such as a power plant trip, then they can call on these generators/power plants to increase MW's pretty quickly, or just synch Dinorwig, as this is its main function. Intead of having to wait for a gas station to start up which could take anywhere between 40 mins to 4 hours or sometimes even longer.

[turbobloke]

Letter in Sunday Telegraph

Dear Sir,

A windfarm to be built in north Cambs has one turbine within half a
mile of a primary school. When objections were raised about the danger
of ice shards or broken blades pinwheeling through the playground it
was explained that the turbines would be switched off during term time
- doubtless earning extra cash for this non-production of electricity.

Yours faithfully

Etc

Kerching

[phumy]

turbobloke said:

Letter in Sunday Telegraph

Dear Sir,

A windfarm to be built in north Cambs has one turbine within half a
mile of a primary school. When objections were raised about the danger
of ice shards or broken blades pinwheeling through the playground it
was explained that the turbines would be switched off during term time
- doubtless earning extra cash for this non-production of electricity.

Yours faithfully

Etc

Kerching

Easy, just incorporate blade heating, no ice.

[ZeeTacoe]

phumy said:

turbobloke said:

Letter in Sunday Telegraph

Dear Sir,

A windfarm to be built in north Cambs has one turbine within half a
mile of a primary school. When objections were raised about the danger
of ice shards or broken blades pinwheeling through the playground it
was explained that the turbines would be switched off during term time
- doubtless earning extra cash for this non-production of electricity.

Yours faithfully

Etc

Kerching

Easy, just incorporate blade heating, no ice.

Or place it far away from the school? Half a mile or so should be far enough

[Ozzie Osmond]

twister said:

Dinorwig might not actually be a store of electricity energy, but from the perspective of the grid, does it not behave as one - you put electricity in and, at some later point in time, you get electricity back out...

"Dinorwig's reversible pump/turbines are capable of reaching maximum generation in less than 16 seconds."

I'd say that for practical purposes that's a YES.

[arfur sleep]

cost per megawatt of electricity generated by a wind turbine = £11 million
cost per megawatt of electricity generated by a coal fired power station = £0.5 million

[turbobloke]

"Easy, just incorporate blade heating, no ice."

Yes I've read about products such as WTIPS. Drawing from the windymill's own power will take output down further, not much at 1 deg C / sec but not trivial at 10 deg C / sec and single figures percent of plated capacity can't go much lower as it's already comical. We're talking real world here not government green baloney or windymill manufacturer spin.

[Mojocvh]

turbobloke said:

"Easy, just incorporate blade heating, no ice."

Yes I've read about products such as WTIPS. Drawing from the windymill's own power will take output down further, not much at 1 deg C / sec but not trivial at 10 deg C / sec and single figures percent of plated capacity can't go much lower as it's already comical. We're talking real world here not government green baloney or windymill manufacturer spin.

really now tb, one particular manufacturer has had such a spanking that there is NO WAY they could afford to spin anything.

http://french-club-chair.com/siemens-fined-648-mil...

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/it-business/12...

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/swissMktRpt/i...


http://www.siemens.com/sustainability/en/core-topi...