BMW E34 Touring Vs Merc W124 estate. Opinions?
Discussion
I've just about convinced myself that I want a Mercedes w124 estate (and I've my eye on a nice one) BUT some comments on another thread have made me stop to think; would an E34 touring be just as good or even better?
What does everyone think?
Some parameters:
Fuel consumption not important - it will do maybe 1,500 mile pa. This also means it will be petrol NOT diesel.
Outright performance not important - use will be mainly suburban tootling, but don't want it to be pathetically slow either.
Finally, out and out driving dynamics, pin-sharp handling etc (and all the other stuff weren't meant to be into on PH) aren't that important either - comfort and the ability to withstand pot-holed urban roads is.
What is more important is reliability, build quality, maintenance costs, overall pleasure of ownership etc.
So, over to you . . . .
What does everyone think?
Some parameters:
Fuel consumption not important - it will do maybe 1,500 mile pa. This also means it will be petrol NOT diesel.
Outright performance not important - use will be mainly suburban tootling, but don't want it to be pathetically slow either.
Finally, out and out driving dynamics, pin-sharp handling etc (and all the other stuff weren't meant to be into on PH) aren't that important either - comfort and the ability to withstand pot-holed urban roads is.
What is more important is reliability, build quality, maintenance costs, overall pleasure of ownership etc.
So, over to you . . . .
The M-B is a better built car and will rust less over time. The BMW is a better drivers car, cheaper to run and maintain along with a more enjoyable ride. For a long term affair the M-B is a better buy, if you can find one.....the BMW however will make you smile more and bring you greater pleasure.
So it's 2-0 to the W124 so far. Thanks for your opinions - keep them coming.
Another poster (and a Merc fan) on another thread said of E34s:
Another poster (and a Merc fan) on another thread said of E34s:
r129sl said:
The perfect medium-sized cars? More perfect than a W124? And the 1.8litre motor is amazingly smooth for a 4.
Proof, surely (like it is needed), of my maxim: if something is any good, you can guarantee they'll stop making it.
Proof, surely (like it is needed), of my maxim: if something is any good, you can guarantee they'll stop making it.
I've had three W124 estates; a 300TE, a 300TE 4-Matic, and a E280(T). I base my observations on my experience with those three, as well as what I read before and during my ownership.
Both 2WD wagons broke half-shafts. Being powerful automatics, our tendency was to use the available performance to make good time across London. Suspension bushes seem to wear at 100-150k miles or so. It seems that the bush wear in the 5-link suspension at the rear puts additional stress on the half-shafts, perhaps through 'wind up' in the rear end. At both front and rear, check for uneven tyre wear on the car you're looking at, as this is a good giveaway. Similarly, wheel bearings wear relatively rapidly (in comparison to the life of the rest of the car, at least!). I know you're not looking for 'sporty', but a well maintained W124 can - ah-hem, allegedly - drift very nicely around wet roundabouts or make very good, neutral-handling time across tight country roads with sensible use of the gearbox and weight transfer. As the late Paddy Hopkirk said about Escorts, "if you're not looking through the back window, you're in control"...
4-Matics are fun, but (a) thirsty, and (b) have terrible steering lock compared to the rest of the range. They also require additional servicing. They are cheap 2nd-hand for a reason. Incidentally, there is a lock-out valve under the bonnet for the 4-Matic system, turning it into a RWD-only vehicle, which is useful for getting the brakes properly tested at a garage / MOT station lacking 4WD rollers.
Build quality on the 'Mk II' W124s (i.e. post-facelift) seems markedly worse. Front wings rot (especially near the headlamps, where later models seem to trap mud), headlamp lenses pick up stone chips more readily, interior materials quality is noticeably lower, seats are less durable, doors close with less of a reassuring thunk, bumpers and exterior mouldings are much less robust and resistant to parking knocks, front seats are much less comfortable, and so on. Against that, the multi-valve engines in the later models are much nicer - they stay in tune more readily, are much more economical in real-world urban / suburban driving, have much better top-end performance, and so on. The W124 facelift marked the start of the transition between the 'money no object' engineering of earlier times and the newer Mercedes approach. In real terms, W124s got cheaper over time - the early ones were really very, very expensive compared to their competition, but you really did get what you paid for.
For load-carrying, W124 wagons are very, very well designed. There are lashing points everywhere. The rear seat bases can be removed (I believe this was standard on all versions, but am not sure - flip up the seat base and look for a red handle), which means that 1800 x 600 sheets of plasterboard can be carried in the rear once the front passenger seat has been moved forward. The seven seat option detracts almost nothing from load-carrying capability, but increases versatility enormously - it is worth looking out for.
Talking of interiors, all seat materials wear very well. Given a choice, I'd take the excellent faux leather 'MB Tex' (often mistaken for leather, even by owners, so if the advert says leather check that it really is) or the (much rarer) leather alternative. Fabrics do mark quite badly, again especially on the later models, if children are involved.
As a towing vehicle, the W124 is fantastic - the aerodynamic wake seems very stable, which helps to reduce trailer sway. Against that, the rear overhang is long, which has a marked effect upon trailer turning characteristics.
Roof rails are far stronger than quoted - with factory cross bars and a little wooden reinforcement, I've carried 20-30 sheets of 8x4 chipboard on the roof, for instance, with no great dramas. All 3 wagons I've had have featured a combined retracting load cover (horizontal) and retracing luggage net / dog net (vertical) in a single 'cartridge' which fits behind the rear seats. This is nicely-designed, but can be damaged - check it on the one you look at, since I've not often seen good ones for sale second-hand.
Self-leveling rear suspension is a boon and a curse. It allows you to load up the car enormously without too much drama, but is prone to failure. Those with it fitted have weaker main rear springs, so sag noticeably if the system isn't working.
Gearboxes are pretty strong. I have no experience with the manuals (which weren't much-liked by reviewers when new), but the autos seem strong enough if maintained. Again, from my sample of 3, the later ones seem less robust than the earlier ones, but the trade-off is that you get a multi-mode gearbox experience, which can be useful. Again, you takes your choice...
One quirk - front armrests are set up for LHD vehicles only, as they're attached to the L/H seat, not the R/H seat. If the passenger moves their seat fore / aft, or reclines it a great deal, the driver's armrest usage is badly compromised.
As is written elsewhere, W124 option lists were extensive; it is hard to work out what is a 'standard' model, and you can search forever to get the precise mixture of options you'd like to have. It isn't obvious that you can retro-fit all of the systems to a 'bare' car, however, without lots of modification, so try hard to get the spec you want.
What else? The first-aid kits, certainly on the earlier models, are worthy of a military field hospital, complete with huge rolls of bandage and a pair of (excellent quality) stainless steel scissors - the whole kit is easily £40 worth if you bought it new! In London, 'yoof' still cherish 3-pointed stars, so expect to lose yours from the front early on. Try hard to avoid cars with applique chrome wheelarches - regardless of aesthetic concerns, they are rust-traps.
Value-wise, expect to pay £600-800 for a workable one with an MOT on it and no major issues, up to several £k from specialists for a mint example. Values haven't moved much in a couple of years - a working one is always worth about the same, and is often just a little more than you'd want to pay to have it as a completely disposable tool, so buy carefully to avoid disappointment!
That gives you a quick overview. I can help more, if you like. If I'm honest, I had a bitter-sweet experience with mine. I loved them as pieces of engineering, but there was always that nagging doubt that something big would go wrong, yet they weren't quite cheap enough to throw away. If you can find a really good one, especially a 'Mk I', I'd pay top-dollar for it and then keep it maintained - you should get another 10-20 years out of it!
Both 2WD wagons broke half-shafts. Being powerful automatics, our tendency was to use the available performance to make good time across London. Suspension bushes seem to wear at 100-150k miles or so. It seems that the bush wear in the 5-link suspension at the rear puts additional stress on the half-shafts, perhaps through 'wind up' in the rear end. At both front and rear, check for uneven tyre wear on the car you're looking at, as this is a good giveaway. Similarly, wheel bearings wear relatively rapidly (in comparison to the life of the rest of the car, at least!). I know you're not looking for 'sporty', but a well maintained W124 can - ah-hem, allegedly - drift very nicely around wet roundabouts or make very good, neutral-handling time across tight country roads with sensible use of the gearbox and weight transfer. As the late Paddy Hopkirk said about Escorts, "if you're not looking through the back window, you're in control"...
4-Matics are fun, but (a) thirsty, and (b) have terrible steering lock compared to the rest of the range. They also require additional servicing. They are cheap 2nd-hand for a reason. Incidentally, there is a lock-out valve under the bonnet for the 4-Matic system, turning it into a RWD-only vehicle, which is useful for getting the brakes properly tested at a garage / MOT station lacking 4WD rollers.
Build quality on the 'Mk II' W124s (i.e. post-facelift) seems markedly worse. Front wings rot (especially near the headlamps, where later models seem to trap mud), headlamp lenses pick up stone chips more readily, interior materials quality is noticeably lower, seats are less durable, doors close with less of a reassuring thunk, bumpers and exterior mouldings are much less robust and resistant to parking knocks, front seats are much less comfortable, and so on. Against that, the multi-valve engines in the later models are much nicer - they stay in tune more readily, are much more economical in real-world urban / suburban driving, have much better top-end performance, and so on. The W124 facelift marked the start of the transition between the 'money no object' engineering of earlier times and the newer Mercedes approach. In real terms, W124s got cheaper over time - the early ones were really very, very expensive compared to their competition, but you really did get what you paid for.
For load-carrying, W124 wagons are very, very well designed. There are lashing points everywhere. The rear seat bases can be removed (I believe this was standard on all versions, but am not sure - flip up the seat base and look for a red handle), which means that 1800 x 600 sheets of plasterboard can be carried in the rear once the front passenger seat has been moved forward. The seven seat option detracts almost nothing from load-carrying capability, but increases versatility enormously - it is worth looking out for.
Talking of interiors, all seat materials wear very well. Given a choice, I'd take the excellent faux leather 'MB Tex' (often mistaken for leather, even by owners, so if the advert says leather check that it really is) or the (much rarer) leather alternative. Fabrics do mark quite badly, again especially on the later models, if children are involved.
As a towing vehicle, the W124 is fantastic - the aerodynamic wake seems very stable, which helps to reduce trailer sway. Against that, the rear overhang is long, which has a marked effect upon trailer turning characteristics.
Roof rails are far stronger than quoted - with factory cross bars and a little wooden reinforcement, I've carried 20-30 sheets of 8x4 chipboard on the roof, for instance, with no great dramas. All 3 wagons I've had have featured a combined retracting load cover (horizontal) and retracing luggage net / dog net (vertical) in a single 'cartridge' which fits behind the rear seats. This is nicely-designed, but can be damaged - check it on the one you look at, since I've not often seen good ones for sale second-hand.
Self-leveling rear suspension is a boon and a curse. It allows you to load up the car enormously without too much drama, but is prone to failure. Those with it fitted have weaker main rear springs, so sag noticeably if the system isn't working.
Gearboxes are pretty strong. I have no experience with the manuals (which weren't much-liked by reviewers when new), but the autos seem strong enough if maintained. Again, from my sample of 3, the later ones seem less robust than the earlier ones, but the trade-off is that you get a multi-mode gearbox experience, which can be useful. Again, you takes your choice...
One quirk - front armrests are set up for LHD vehicles only, as they're attached to the L/H seat, not the R/H seat. If the passenger moves their seat fore / aft, or reclines it a great deal, the driver's armrest usage is badly compromised.
As is written elsewhere, W124 option lists were extensive; it is hard to work out what is a 'standard' model, and you can search forever to get the precise mixture of options you'd like to have. It isn't obvious that you can retro-fit all of the systems to a 'bare' car, however, without lots of modification, so try hard to get the spec you want.
What else? The first-aid kits, certainly on the earlier models, are worthy of a military field hospital, complete with huge rolls of bandage and a pair of (excellent quality) stainless steel scissors - the whole kit is easily £40 worth if you bought it new! In London, 'yoof' still cherish 3-pointed stars, so expect to lose yours from the front early on. Try hard to avoid cars with applique chrome wheelarches - regardless of aesthetic concerns, they are rust-traps.
Value-wise, expect to pay £600-800 for a workable one with an MOT on it and no major issues, up to several £k from specialists for a mint example. Values haven't moved much in a couple of years - a working one is always worth about the same, and is often just a little more than you'd want to pay to have it as a completely disposable tool, so buy carefully to avoid disappointment!
That gives you a quick overview. I can help more, if you like. If I'm honest, I had a bitter-sweet experience with mine. I loved them as pieces of engineering, but there was always that nagging doubt that something big would go wrong, yet they weren't quite cheap enough to throw away. If you can find a really good one, especially a 'Mk I', I'd pay top-dollar for it and then keep it maintained - you should get another 10-20 years out of it!
I've had the saloon versions of both and both are very good cars, I'd say try both as they both have different characters. For wafting it would have to be the merc, although they can be hustled along surprisingly well. E34's have a more sporting feel as standard but aren't quite as special as a 124.
edpurnell said:
W124 for me. I am biased as I own one.
Great build quality, comfortable, quiet and versatile.
As others have said buy the best you can and budget some money to keep it maintained. After all they are getting on a bit now.
....then enjoy wafting about....
Same as him. See profile. Great build quality, comfortable, quiet and versatile.
As others have said buy the best you can and budget some money to keep it maintained. After all they are getting on a bit now.
....then enjoy wafting about....
Ran a W124 E220 Estate personally myself, bought for family members over the years E34 518i Touring & more recently E34 525tds Touring aswell as a E34 520i Saloon
Costs, very little in it, both can be run cheaply and if properly maintained both will prove reliable, rust wise I'd say in my experience the E34 is better (W124's all seem to rust in the same areas regardless if 'used'). Biggest cost issue is that a good E34 can be bought a lot cheaper than a good W124 of equal quality.
The Merc is most likely to be an auto, the e34 could be either (manual obviously less prone to issues)
Boot space Merc wins, but the E34 is pretty large
E34 drives like a more modern uptodate car, W124 tiptoes along on its narrow tyres, ride is better on the W124 but handling is much sharper on E34 (if it ride your after make sure its got non sports suspension)
Which would I go for... either an E34 or for the same money as a good W124 an E39
Merc cost twice the price of an older higher miles car
Costs, very little in it, both can be run cheaply and if properly maintained both will prove reliable, rust wise I'd say in my experience the E34 is better (W124's all seem to rust in the same areas regardless if 'used'). Biggest cost issue is that a good E34 can be bought a lot cheaper than a good W124 of equal quality.
The Merc is most likely to be an auto, the e34 could be either (manual obviously less prone to issues)
Boot space Merc wins, but the E34 is pretty large
E34 drives like a more modern uptodate car, W124 tiptoes along on its narrow tyres, ride is better on the W124 but handling is much sharper on E34 (if it ride your after make sure its got non sports suspension)
Which would I go for... either an E34 or for the same money as a good W124 an E39
Merc cost twice the price of an older higher miles car
Edited by Mustard on Sunday 18th September 19:35
I wrote a long winded ramble in reply to your post on the e34 535 thread,but just realised my post only contains the quote to your post
Anyway i'm not writing it all out again, and to bring some balance to the thread i'll say the E34, i've owned both and at the age both models are your always need to keep on top of maintenance.
The Merc will give the most space and the BMW will give the most driving pleasure. You need to convince a couple of members on here to meet you and let you have a play.
This is expensive but a nice add.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1993-BMW-530-TOURING-GRE...
Anyway i'm not writing it all out again, and to bring some balance to the thread i'll say the E34, i've owned both and at the age both models are your always need to keep on top of maintenance.
The Merc will give the most space and the BMW will give the most driving pleasure. You need to convince a couple of members on here to meet you and let you have a play.
This is expensive but a nice add.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1993-BMW-530-TOURING-GRE...
Edited by sprouting on Sunday 18th September 19:53
More good opinions guys, really appreciate it. Please keep them coming!
However - the reason that I'm looking at w124 estate Vs e34 touring is that I've narrowed my choices to an estate - because we have 2 dogs (chocolate labs, not 1/2 a brain between them) and currently have an A4 avant.
BUT - I've just realised over the last day or 2 that I don't absolutely have to have an estate - a mechanically sound but cosmetically slightly shabby E38 7'er or W124 saloon would also work (with a set of roof bars for the occasional trip to B&Q)
That opens up a whole new world of options - W124 saloon, E34 saloon, E32, E38, even W140 . . .
This has just got a whole lot more complicated!
ETA - the 2 examples posted by Mustard are just lovely. How could you choose between them?
However - the reason that I'm looking at w124 estate Vs e34 touring is that I've narrowed my choices to an estate - because we have 2 dogs (chocolate labs, not 1/2 a brain between them) and currently have an A4 avant.
BUT - I've just realised over the last day or 2 that I don't absolutely have to have an estate - a mechanically sound but cosmetically slightly shabby E38 7'er or W124 saloon would also work (with a set of roof bars for the occasional trip to B&Q)
That opens up a whole new world of options - W124 saloon, E34 saloon, E32, E38, even W140 . . .
This has just got a whole lot more complicated!
ETA - the 2 examples posted by Mustard are just lovely. How could you choose between them?
Thanks everyone for your opinions and for taking the time to respond.
The issue may have just become academic though, as the 300TE-24 that I'm after will require a flight to get it and a long drive & ferry home, whereas a decent looking E34 525ise touring auto has just today appeared about 20 miles away! Also it's Oxford Green so it will be a good pairing for my Malachite Green E30 325ise 2 door.
Maybe the E30 should be swapped in due course for a W124 coupe though . . .
The issue may have just become academic though, as the 300TE-24 that I'm after will require a flight to get it and a long drive & ferry home, whereas a decent looking E34 525ise touring auto has just today appeared about 20 miles away! Also it's Oxford Green so it will be a good pairing for my Malachite Green E30 325ise 2 door.
Maybe the E30 should be swapped in due course for a W124 coupe though . . .
Have you thought about a V70?
Not RWD but they are great cars and take abuse with ease.
The 2.5 5 cylinder engine is fantastic and very understressed.
For only doing 1500 pa I would go for the 2.4T,
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
there's also a 4WD version for the winter.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
Not RWD but they are great cars and take abuse with ease.
The 2.5 5 cylinder engine is fantastic and very understressed.
For only doing 1500 pa I would go for the 2.4T,
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
there's also a 4WD version for the winter.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
Well well, would you believe it.
Not a single E34 touring or W124 TE (apart from a beige 200) comes up for sale within about 60 miles for months and months and now both a 525ise auto and a pre facelift 300TE turn up within 10 miles of me on the same day. Just when I'd started thinking that an E38 with occasional application of roof bars (probably only needed 2 or 3 times a year) would be a better option, I have 2 examples of the cars I'd been looking for all along. What's a chap to do?
Looks like it could be the Merc after all. Trying to arrange to see them both today or tomorrow. Why don't sellers put any phone nos in their ads, FFS!
Not a single E34 touring or W124 TE (apart from a beige 200) comes up for sale within about 60 miles for months and months and now both a 525ise auto and a pre facelift 300TE turn up within 10 miles of me on the same day. Just when I'd started thinking that an E38 with occasional application of roof bars (probably only needed 2 or 3 times a year) would be a better option, I have 2 examples of the cars I'd been looking for all along. What's a chap to do?
Looks like it could be the Merc after all. Trying to arrange to see them both today or tomorrow. Why don't sellers put any phone nos in their ads, FFS!
How much are you looking to spend? My old 525iX touring may be for sale (4wd)
I've owned E34s in the past...great cars, well built and cheap to run (mostly)...
I had a 530i SE manual saloon (M30 engine) and a 525iX SE Manual Touring (BMW don't do estates)...
Things to watch out for on E34s:
All cars suffer from wobbly wipers...the linkeage wears out and is NLA from BMW...expensive to find and fix...
All except the iX suffer from front wheel shimmy over 50mph and under braking...upper control arm bushes...Steering can feel sloppy...worn steering box...Loose and rattly rear end...rear beam bushes and/or dogbones worn...
All tourings with dual sunroofs...watch out, they may work, but are prone to failing "open"...very expensive and fiddly to repair, best to just leave well alone! Tourings also suffer from electrical gremlins...almost all related to frayed or damaged wiring in the tailgate hinges...easy to fix.
Also most tourings 525 and up (so not 518/520/525TD) have self-levelling rear suspension...this is fine when working, but the front to rear pressure pipes corrode badly, the struts leak and the spheres also leak...can be expensive to replace, but can all be replaced with conventional supension without too much hassle...
All 4 cyl and 6cyl cars have plastic fuel tanks...they hardly ever leak (unlike the V8/M5 metal ones), but the myriad of pipes around the tank can spring a leak requiring the tank to be dropped to replace the pipes and breathers...not hard if you have a ramp, a ball-ache on the drive!
The V8s also suffer(ed) from the well-documented Nikisil problem...Most were fixed as recalls, but there are a few smokers left out there...a lumpy idle and smoke/oil consumption on acceleration is a give-away.
Having said all that, they are great old barges...tourings are less rust prone than saloons and have a decent amount of space for the (little) money they go for
HTH
I've owned E34s in the past...great cars, well built and cheap to run (mostly)...
I had a 530i SE manual saloon (M30 engine) and a 525iX SE Manual Touring (BMW don't do estates)...
Things to watch out for on E34s:
All cars suffer from wobbly wipers...the linkeage wears out and is NLA from BMW...expensive to find and fix...
All except the iX suffer from front wheel shimmy over 50mph and under braking...upper control arm bushes...Steering can feel sloppy...worn steering box...Loose and rattly rear end...rear beam bushes and/or dogbones worn...
All tourings with dual sunroofs...watch out, they may work, but are prone to failing "open"...very expensive and fiddly to repair, best to just leave well alone! Tourings also suffer from electrical gremlins...almost all related to frayed or damaged wiring in the tailgate hinges...easy to fix.
Also most tourings 525 and up (so not 518/520/525TD) have self-levelling rear suspension...this is fine when working, but the front to rear pressure pipes corrode badly, the struts leak and the spheres also leak...can be expensive to replace, but can all be replaced with conventional supension without too much hassle...
All 4 cyl and 6cyl cars have plastic fuel tanks...they hardly ever leak (unlike the V8/M5 metal ones), but the myriad of pipes around the tank can spring a leak requiring the tank to be dropped to replace the pipes and breathers...not hard if you have a ramp, a ball-ache on the drive!
The V8s also suffer(ed) from the well-documented Nikisil problem...Most were fixed as recalls, but there are a few smokers left out there...a lumpy idle and smoke/oil consumption on acceleration is a give-away.
Having said all that, they are great old barges...tourings are less rust prone than saloons and have a decent amount of space for the (little) money they go for
HTH
mccrackenj said:
Well well, would you believe it.
Not a single E34 touring or W124 TE (apart from a beige 200) comes up for sale within about 60 miles for months and months and now both a 525ise auto and a pre facelift 300TE turn up within 10 miles of me on the same day. Just when I'd started thinking that an E38 with occasional application of roof bars (probably only needed 2 or 3 times a year) would be a better option, I have 2 examples of the cars I'd been looking for all along. What's a chap to do?
Looks like it could be the Merc after all. Trying to arrange to see them both today or tomorrow. Why don't sellers put any phone nos in their ads, FFS!
Is that the 300te on gumtree for £800? noticed it myself....no phone number always makes me nervous. Not a single E34 touring or W124 TE (apart from a beige 200) comes up for sale within about 60 miles for months and months and now both a 525ise auto and a pre facelift 300TE turn up within 10 miles of me on the same day. Just when I'd started thinking that an E38 with occasional application of roof bars (probably only needed 2 or 3 times a year) would be a better option, I have 2 examples of the cars I'd been looking for all along. What's a chap to do?
Looks like it could be the Merc after all. Trying to arrange to see them both today or tomorrow. Why don't sellers put any phone nos in their ads, FFS!
Mum has had a w124 estate from new in 1990, still looks and drives as new with 140kish.
I was looking for a cheap off roader for this winter but there's a guy near me selling a 300te 4-matic which would be an amazing winter runabout....the only problem? he wants 5k for it
It is indeed. It's very handy to me so I'd be keen to see it. Might not be great for £800 but the 300TE-24 I'm looking at is at a specialist and looks lovely. In fact that is the problem - it looks far too good to park on the street and have 2 dogs in the back of it ocasionally. I just fear that if I bought it I'd be too precious about it, so maybe I'd be happier with a slightly 'rougher' one - if that makes sense?
Is the 4-matic you're looking at green? I spotted a green one (on an E-bay classified ad I think) but he was looking £5995. It would have to very good for that.
Is the 4-matic you're looking at green? I spotted a green one (on an E-bay classified ad I think) but he was looking £5995. It would have to very good for that.
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