External telephone cable
Discussion
When a decade ago I last had a line fault and the issue of who provided your telephony was fairly simple, I called BT. They came, sussed the problem, said that as it was a damp junction box in the cellar inside my house but before the whatever-it's-called boxes so it was their problem and sorted it (by pushing cables into sharpish narrowing metal grooves in place of soldering the connections). Subsequently as it was crackly I soldered those connections,, which didn't really make much difference but it all still worked and we hardly made any voice calls anyway.
Now I've one of my two lines, an anachronism from the days of dial-up, dead and the other as always, crackly. Looking at the cables there are two coming from the pylon in the street to two upside-down black tumbler-shaped thingys attached to my house, then one ?5core cable which connects to both, runs down, then horizontally and into an airbrick in the cellar to connect to the wires that lead to the two phone cables which serve the BT boxes, one on the ground floor, one on the top floor (dead). Colours are O W G B Y. Y is not connected, but the others are. Using the tongue test, O & W give a tingle when linked - I haven't checked all the others.
I pay TTalk for my line rental and I see that if I call them out I'll pay a 3 figure charge if it is a problem on my property - which seems to take the responsibility back to the upside-down bits and potentially further back to where the pylon cable crosses from the road to the property. The 5 core line which comes down from them to the cellar has two nasty dents about 80mm apart as if someone has dropped a concrete lintel or similar onto it and crushed the insulation. One of the dents has some cable core visible so I expect that there is corrosion leading to a loss of continuity or a short. I've ordered 20m of external jelly-filled cable "5 pair external" which seems OTT but which allows me to have 5 different colours to use.
My question is: Will I be in trouble if I replace the damaged cable with my cable - when BT took responsibility for the cable all the way to the junction box I'd accept that they own it to the box, but if TT say that once it crosses my boundary it's my problem I don't, and expect that if I've liability for the cable I also have ownership of the cables from boundary onwards.
Now I've one of my two lines, an anachronism from the days of dial-up, dead and the other as always, crackly. Looking at the cables there are two coming from the pylon in the street to two upside-down black tumbler-shaped thingys attached to my house, then one ?5core cable which connects to both, runs down, then horizontally and into an airbrick in the cellar to connect to the wires that lead to the two phone cables which serve the BT boxes, one on the ground floor, one on the top floor (dead). Colours are O W G B Y. Y is not connected, but the others are. Using the tongue test, O & W give a tingle when linked - I haven't checked all the others.
I pay TTalk for my line rental and I see that if I call them out I'll pay a 3 figure charge if it is a problem on my property - which seems to take the responsibility back to the upside-down bits and potentially further back to where the pylon cable crosses from the road to the property. The 5 core line which comes down from them to the cellar has two nasty dents about 80mm apart as if someone has dropped a concrete lintel or similar onto it and crushed the insulation. One of the dents has some cable core visible so I expect that there is corrosion leading to a loss of continuity or a short. I've ordered 20m of external jelly-filled cable "5 pair external" which seems OTT but which allows me to have 5 different colours to use.
My question is: Will I be in trouble if I replace the damaged cable with my cable - when BT took responsibility for the cable all the way to the junction box I'd accept that they own it to the box, but if TT say that once it crosses my boundary it's my problem I don't, and expect that if I've liability for the cable I also have ownership of the cables from boundary onwards.
We are also with TalkTalk, and this is a common "threat" used by them. Your responsibility starts with everything connected *after* the Master Socket. TalkTalk's reasponsibility includes the entire installation up to and including the Master Socket, even the cabling that runs inside your property. This does not include extenstions etc, but all cabling from the exterior up to the Master Socket.
If the connection box in your cellar is between the exchange and your master socket, then it is not your responsibility.
Chances are you'll get a BT engineer anyway, as TalkTalk only rent the cables from them.
If the connection box in your cellar is between the exchange and your master socket, then it is not your responsibility.
Chances are you'll get a BT engineer anyway, as TalkTalk only rent the cables from them.
I was a BT engineer in a different lifetime, the external cabling (BTs or their agents) sounds like a bit of a hash up. There shouldnt be any external joins in the cable from the distribution box up the pole & the BT termination point in your house. That cable is theirs. Any joins are always going to be a liability as water will get in & corrode etc.
Dropping a lintel on it wont have helped
but I would hope that a sensible engineer would change the 'span & lead in' free of charge to bring it up to scratch. Depends who turns up on the day...
Dropping a lintel on it wont have helped
but I would hope that a sensible engineer would change the 'span & lead in' free of charge to bring it up to scratch. Depends who turns up on the day...Thanks for replies.
Update. I got some 7mm multi-line external petroleum jelly-filled cable and replaced "my" [BT's] 5mm damaged down cable (which runs down from the two grey-black inverted tumbler shaped screw-on junctions on my house which connect with the two phone line cables from the pylon in the street). The working phone line was fine. One of the wires from the pylon seemed fine and the two wires used for the phone gave a tingle across the tongue like a 9V battery. The one in the dead line was rough and corroded and spontaneously separated where the linesman had cut the outer black plastic casing many years ago. Ahha! I thought, and took it back a couple of inches. However, it was still rough and even after stripping down to the metal, my tongue said that there was no PD across the wires. I soldered the wires to ensure that there was a good connection, but it was no surprise that the second line is still dead.
After some time 15' above the ground on a ladder accompanied by a soldering iron I hope that T Talk / BT don't turn round and say that as I've replaced "my" downcable I've interfered with their system and deny liability despite finding that the problem is in the lines which come from outside my property. I can't pretend that it was a proper engineer as the cable is different and they use a little part-opaque plastic connector rather than soldering it. I think that the faulty phone line has probably been in place for 20yrs+ Interestingly the cores don't seem to be copper but a silvery metal prone to corrosion.
It's still amazing that we can have phone, internet, my son's Call of Duty etc all at the same time down two tiny strands of copper...
Update. I got some 7mm multi-line external petroleum jelly-filled cable and replaced "my" [BT's] 5mm damaged down cable (which runs down from the two grey-black inverted tumbler shaped screw-on junctions on my house which connect with the two phone line cables from the pylon in the street). The working phone line was fine. One of the wires from the pylon seemed fine and the two wires used for the phone gave a tingle across the tongue like a 9V battery. The one in the dead line was rough and corroded and spontaneously separated where the linesman had cut the outer black plastic casing many years ago. Ahha! I thought, and took it back a couple of inches. However, it was still rough and even after stripping down to the metal, my tongue said that there was no PD across the wires. I soldered the wires to ensure that there was a good connection, but it was no surprise that the second line is still dead.
After some time 15' above the ground on a ladder accompanied by a soldering iron I hope that T Talk / BT don't turn round and say that as I've replaced "my" downcable I've interfered with their system and deny liability despite finding that the problem is in the lines which come from outside my property. I can't pretend that it was a proper engineer as the cable is different and they use a little part-opaque plastic connector rather than soldering it. I think that the faulty phone line has probably been in place for 20yrs+ Interestingly the cores don't seem to be copper but a silvery metal prone to corrosion.
It's still amazing that we can have phone, internet, my son's Call of Duty etc all at the same time down two tiny strands of copper...
Tongue test indeed 
Believe it or not I have had quite a bolt from a BT line before, they run around 50v DC, Virgin etc is around 40v DC.
If you haven't got a meter to check for voltage, a tip is to spit on the top of a finger, then put the 2 stipped cores across it ( don't touch the cores together ) and you should see a slight fizzing around each core.
Believe it or not I have had quite a bolt from a BT line before, they run around 50v DC, Virgin etc is around 40v DC.
If you haven't got a meter to check for voltage, a tip is to spit on the top of a finger, then put the 2 stipped cores across it ( don't touch the cores together ) and you should see a slight fizzing around each core.
Edited by Westy Pre-Lit on Monday 26th September 18:23
In the past, when reporting a BT line fault, an automated test was carried out. This usually indicates if the fault is exchange/Underground/Pole-onwards. Not sure if it is accessable if your 'BT line' is managed by another TELCO though.
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Jimboka said:
In the past, when reporting a BT line fault, an automated test was carried out. This usually indicates if the fault is exchange/Underground/Pole-onwards. Not sure if it is accessable if your 'BT line' is managed by another TELCO though.
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
a line test is still done but it cannot see corrosion which is the most likely cause of noise,the line test can only see earth contacts ,battery contacts ,disconnections and loop(short circuits) and cable imbalances . Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
bimsb6 said:
Jimboka said:
In the past, when reporting a BT line fault, an automated test was carried out. This usually indicates if the fault is exchange/Underground/Pole-onwards. Not sure if it is accessable if your 'BT line' is managed by another TELCO though.
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
a line test is still done but it cannot see corrosion which is the most likely cause of noise,the line test can only see earth contacts ,battery contacts ,disconnections and loop(short circuits) and cable imbalances . Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Jimboka said:
bimsb6 said:
Jimboka said:
In the past, when reporting a BT line fault, an automated test was carried out. This usually indicates if the fault is exchange/Underground/Pole-onwards. Not sure if it is accessable if your 'BT line' is managed by another TELCO though.
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
a line test is still done but it cannot see corrosion which is the most likely cause of noise,the line test can only see earth contacts ,battery contacts ,disconnections and loop(short circuits) and cable imbalances . Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Dave_ST220 said:
Probably copper clad aluminium, s
t for BB so you would have been better off getting BTO out to fix what is theirs anyway.
The new cable I got is CW1128 compliant 5 pair external (I'm only using two pairs) with petroleum jelly filling and the cores are fully copper, while the BT one coming from the pole looks like crappy crumbly copper clad aluminium. I'll not pretend that I've not done a DIY, but in mitigation t for BB so you would have been better off getting BTO out to fix what is theirs anyway.1) the fault is on what is definitely not my cable (the faulty one is the one coming from the pole to my house and which has no voltage across the relevant wires - only about 5m crosses my boundary, the remaining 30m or so are above a neighbour's garden and then crosses the road to the pole).
2) the impression given by TTalk* is that I'd be potentially liable for anything from the boundary onwards, so I contend that that would imply that it is also open to me to try to resolve it - though they could try to argue that I caused the fault by DIY - in which case they'd have to explain why there is no PD across the wires coming from the street. I assume that "you have caused or could have prevented" means when you've sliced the line with your ultralong hedgetrimmer, allowed trees to grow and break the line or scraped the down cable off the wall with your car or similar.
- "As a guideline, if the fault is found to be with a piece of equipment connected to your phone line, for example your telephone handset or if it is something that you have caused or could have prevented within the boundaries of your premises (your home or garden), or if there is an upgrade required to your line to get an acceptable level of Broadband service, you will be charged for an engineer visit. If the engineer is unable to gain access to your premises, replicate your fault or cannot find a fault then you will also be charged.
As said, if I have to take the hit, I'll do so... apart from £130 the only thing I'll regret is spending an hour or so at the top of a ladder, but I hope they'll be reasonable.
Edited by nomisesor on Monday 26th September 19:55
Jimboka said:
In the past, when reporting a BT line fault, an automated test was carried out. This usually indicates if the fault is exchange/Underground/Pole-onwards. Not sure if it is accessable if your 'BT line' is managed by another TELCO though.
Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Yes, they did a line test - from India, presumably by satellite! = line fault (which I knew..). As you say, let's hope for an understanding engineer.Trying DIY was probably a bad move. The line to your internal distribution box is theirs. The old cable sounded badly done, but was done by them it seems. So they would have fixed it free of change. They have to. But it sounds like the DIY attempt is obvious, hope a nice engineer turns up & not a jobs worth type!
Update - all is well. When the engineer came and did the line test from my socket in house the fault was 60m away - i.e. well beyond "my" downcable and near the telegraph pole. The grey box at the top of the telegraph pole was wreathed in now-dead ivy. A few weeks ago, probably when my line went down the ivy had been pulled away from the top of the pole to gain access to the box (which a neighbour whose BT vision had gone down then, was told it had invaded). Looking at the box from street level we noted that the front was hanging off, and when the engineer with the cherry picker arrived he found that my line had become completely detached from the junction box at the pole, probably by malevolent squirrels or far less likely by a man in a white hard hat when he pulled the ivy away). All sorted, definitely not in my system, and I was appropriately grateful! Am using the reinstated service to type this message. Thanks to all who commented and thanks Dave ST220, I'll let you know when to give me a buzz.
The electrical gremlins are after me though... this morning at 7.15 the admittedly dew-soaked Supersport developed the infamous "K-series click".
The electrical gremlins are after me though... this morning at 7.15 the admittedly dew-soaked Supersport developed the infamous "K-series click".
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